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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Playing this again for the first time in a long time, we were doing the first Infantry Training Scenario which came in Texas Arrows (which I assume is in current editions of Screaming Eagles?). The question came up, what was the little +1 near the Bazooka squad's firepower? I haven't found that in the rulebook. (Is it supposed to be a reminder of the bonus against WTs?)

Also, from the strategy tips, I gather that we were supposed to use 33.0, but why? The rules say you don't need to read past 16.0, and the scenario doesn't give the date the same way the other scenarios do (you need that for the SATW range... or at least we thought you did, although now I see that it doesn't matter for bazookas). It would've saved us a little time & frustration if the tutorial scenario just had another normal squad instead of the SATW squad.
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Dan Poole
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The +1 is a reminder of its bonus against guns and WT units. Thus that is likely the purpose of the bazooka squad in that scenario, since there are German WTs involved.

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Christopher O
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I hadn't seen that the infantry training scenario had changed (still haven't gotten my new copy).

The original SE training scenario did not have any bazooka teams and thus didn't incur the problem.

I guess that's something that got missed when the new scenario was created. Unfortunate!
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Jim Krohn
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Quote:
The original SE training scenario did not have any bazooka teams and thus didn't incur the problem.


Actually, there never really was a training scenario in SE originally. It just started with Scenario 1, which admittedly was a simple scenario. However Scenario 1 has hedgerows and it was suggested that we come up with something even simpler as a training scenario. The training scenarios for GP were well received and I just kind of decided that each stand alone game should come with a training scenario.

Quote:
Also, from the strategy tips, I gather that we were supposed to use 33.0, but why? The rules say you don't need to read past 16.0, and the scenario doesn't give the date the same way the other scenarios do (you need that for the SATW range...


Doh! Yes, the only additional thing you need to know is that the team with the Bazooka gets +1 Firepower when shooting at a WT within 4 hexes. I'll have to fix that.

The date of the scenario is 1944.
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Christopher O
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Quote:
Actually, there never really was a training scenario in SE originally. It just started with Scenario 1, which admittedly was a simple scenario. However Scenario 1 has hedgerows and it was suggested that we come up with something even simpler as a training scenario. The training scenarios for GP were well received and I just kind of decided that each stand alone game should come with a training scenario.


Right - I forgot. I always thought of scenario 1 as a training scenario in the old edition because I played it so many times AS a training scenario.

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Doug Kewley
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I am sure curious to know how the Americans win the Training Scenario without luck. I realize it is a training scenario, but I was wondering if there is a way for the Americans to succeed without rolling nothing but 1s and 2s.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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dakjck wrote:
I am sure curious to know how the Americans win the Training Scenario without luck.

I won as the Americans, but my opponent did the force substitution, and he put his MG in 5B5 (the building you're trying to capture), which meant a lot of ground was blocked by the building in 5C5. Once I suppressed his squad in 5C5, I was able to run up on them for melee without getting shot by the MG. (And I might have had luck; I don't remember.) I don't think he would do either of those things next time.
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Jim Krohn
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It is a difficult scenario for the Americans, but winnable. I actually think it is more difficult with the force substitution. With that in mind, I would be okay with making it so they have to remove the WT to get the shorter game.

On this training scenario and on the infantry training scenario in Ghost Panzer, I wanted them to slightly favor the defense. It is hard to get these compressed scenarios exactly right in terms of balance. By nature of the short time and few units, there is not enough time for the luck to even out. (That's okay, they are just training scenarios) The offense gets to have the fun in these scenarios so the last thing I want in this case is to have it favor them.

Just giving some design theory on the training scenarios.
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Doug Kewley
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That's fine. It is just with all the talk of find them, fix them and finish them, I was expecting more of a maneuver game with the use of suppressive fire. Given the lack of cover and the short time frame, it is just a rush, which does not show what I anticipate to be the main thrust of the game series.
 
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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dakjck wrote:
It is just with all the talk of find them, fix them and finish them, I was expecting more of a maneuver game with the use of suppressive fire.

I've only played it once, but as I said, "once I suppressed his squad in 5C5, I was able to run up on them for melee without getting shot by the MG," so I don't agree that the scenario fails to capture the main thrust of the game series. (And even if it did, I think the point of the scenario is just to teach the basic mechanisms, and I think it succeeds at that.)
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Guido Gloor
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dakjck wrote:
That's fine. It is just with all the talk of find them, fix them and finish them, I was expecting more of a maneuver game with the use of suppressive fire. Given the lack of cover and the short time frame, it is just a rush, which does not show what I anticipate to be the main thrust of the game series.

Keep in mind that it is a tactical game system, not a strategic one. There is relatively little "find them". And of course, none at all (with the exception of finding out which counters are Decoys, which is important in its own right and a bit of "finding", too) in the training scenarios - the battle lines are rather clearly drawn in those.
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Doug Kewley
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kuhrusty wrote:
"once I suppressed his squad in 5C5, I was able to run up on them for melee without getting shot by the MG,


Given the short time and lack of cover, the Americans usually can only fire suppressive fire as assault fire, which puts them on the proficiency fire level (5). To one of these attacks the Americans could add 1 to reach 6 by using the command point. The German unit is in a stone building (-2) and may be concealed. Therefore, for the best circumstance (use command point and no concealment) the American's chance for suppressing the German Unit is only 40% (PF of 5 plus Command point 1 minus stone building 2. If the Americans do not use the command point and the German unit is concealed, this drops to 20%.

So, while some suppression is possible, the 4 or possibly only 3 game turns mean that suppressing is more a matter of good luck than skill.

I am not complaining (although it may sound like it), it just seems like the real lesson to be learned from the training scenario is more what not to do rather than what to do.
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Jim Krohn
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I agree that the training scenario in GP is better at training tactics. The real lesson of the one in SE is meant to be system.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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dakjck wrote:
If the Americans do not use the command point and the German unit is concealed, this drops to 20%.

Sure, you're probably not going to get it on your first shot, but with 4 units which can do assault fire, you've got better-than-even odds of rolling a 1 or 2 in the first turn, so the unit won't be concealed when you open up with your MG in the second turn.

Or, in the second turn, your MG hits one of the other building hexes (50% chance of revealing + suppressing the hidden unit there, and a 20% chance of casualty-reducing them if it's a 2nd-line squad); if you have 3 squads available for suppressing fire on the hopefully-now-revealed 2nd-line squad in the first building (so that your 4th squad can close for melee), each with a 40% chance of getting a suppression & a 10% chance of a casualty reduction, the odds I get are:
10%
9%
7.2%
9%
10.8%
32.4%
21.6%
Reduced/fully suppressed, 2 squads unused
Reduced/fully suppressed, 1 squad unused
Reduced/fully suppressed
Fully suppressed, 1 squad unused
Fully suppressed
Suppressed
No effect
(Yes, I'm procrastinating.)

So, that's almost a 50% chance of getting full suppression, with an almost 30% chance of having an extra squad or two available for other projects.

(With so few units & rolls, certainly luck is a big factor; I just don't think it's as bad as you do.)

EDIT: sometimes I like to the typos.
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Doug Kewley
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Rusty-that is a fine analysis, except it does not take into account German opportunity (or regular) fire suppressing an American unit.
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Jim Krohn
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Actually, in a small, tight scenario like this, the defense should hold fire and retain concealment unless they get a moving in the open shot and can cause some casualties.

BTW, the idea of holding fire to not reveal your position is a realistic thing that not enough wargames encourage.
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