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Twilight Struggle» Forums » Variants

Subject: "What happened to you, China? You used to be cool!" rss

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Patrick Barry
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I understand that as games are played and discussed over many years that certain strategies will predominate, but it seems to me a real shame that current thinking has rendered actually playing the China Card rarely used. I believe this must be contrary to the designers' original intentions and anti-thematic as well. I certainly don't find it fun to play against a USSR player who will never play it and will in fact hold Cultural Revolution to make sure the US can't keep it if they do get Nixon. I would like to consider some mechanism for making the China Card more involved with the progress of the game. I propose requiring that you hand over the China Card to your opponent if it is face-up in front of you at the end of a War period. I think this may not be enough, but it would be a good place to start.

I tend to think the USSR would play China sometime in T2 so that the US only has one turn to use it and cannot hold it going in to the Mid-War. Presumably the US would hold China Card if they did get it and wait to try and headline Ussuri, but if this fails and they do not lose it to Cultural Revolution, then they would have to play it T7. The USSR would have to make the same play for the opposite reason, although if the USSR had Ussuri in hand and could hold it past the reshuffle they could play China Card at anytime. In Late War you are probably holding China Card until T10 and looking for some play that would offset the VP swing from handing it over at the end of the game, although there are some edge cases depending on whether Cultural/Nixon/Ussuri could still come out.

I only play TS online, so is there anybody out there who wants to try this out on the table?
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Alex Drazen
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The USSR should not play China unless desperate for ops or needing to escape DEFCON suicide. It's not good play for them to simply spew 5 ops for the heck of it.

There are far more disaster cards for the USSR in the Mid War than for the USA, and there are some bad ones in the Late War too. I think I worked out that the USA can only have 2 3 DEFCON suicide cards in its hand (Lone Gunman and We Will Bury You, Ortega Elected in Nicaragua - latter one hardly ever matters though) so they are at less risk, especially since it would take a triple RSP to make WWBY un-spaceable. The USSR has a whole bunch (Duck and Cover, Grain Sales, Tear Down this Wall, CIA Created, Soviets Shoot Down KAL-007) and a RSP of a USSR with Grain Sales and CIA in hand is nearly an automatic victory.

For game end, the China Card scores 1 VP, so not only could someone play 5 Ops in Asia on Turn 10, then they'd get a 2 VP swing in net scoring. The game balance is already built in: do you want 4-5 ops or do you want 1 VP? But you can't have both. A hand-over makes it a ridiculously easy decision, as most good players play most cards for Ops, so they almost certainly won't miss any events they cared about.

If you don't like the USSR having the China card, make threats where they need to play it to respond. If they don't, you'll get a good position. If they do, good job, and there's your China Card.

I would hold China Card as USSR in most cases because good USA players would hold it once I played it to make my hands more difficult (and CR would fail to Nixon or Ussuri). There are way more bad Mid and Late war USSR hands than USA hands, in my opinion, on average (though USSR can get lucky and USA can get unlucky).
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Andrew Leafman
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alexdrazen wrote:
There are far more disaster cards for the USSR in the Mid War than for the USA, and there are some bad ones in the Late War too. I think I worked out that the USA can only have 2 DEFCON suicide cards in its hand (Lone Gunman and We Will Bury You) so they are at less risk, especially since it would take a triple RSP to make WWBY un-spaceable. The USSR has a whole bunch (Duck and Cover, Grain Sales, Tear Down this Wall, CIA Created, Soviets Shoot Down KAL-007) and a RSP of a USSR with Grain Sales and CIA in hand is nearly an automatic victory.


The US has one more possible DEFCON suicide card--Ortega Elected in Nicaragua, should the US have influence in Cuba.

Your overall point is spot on though, generally speaking the USSR has a more difficult time managing its hand and needs the China Card much more. In addition to facing about twice as many DEFCON suicide cards as the US, until Aldritch Ames and Terrorism show up the USSR has no way to unilaterally cut US hand size. The US, in contrast, gets 5YP and Grain Sales much earlier in the game.

I'm intrigued by the proposed variant that forces handovers of the China Card at certain intervals. I'll try it out.
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Josh
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Hey! China still cool!
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Brett Baumgarten
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JoshBot wrote:
Hey! China still cool!


You pay later! Later!
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K Kailden
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That is one (but not the only) thing I notice is different between playing a game against playdek AI and playing with a human: the playdek AI loves to play the China card, it seems - and it often seems advantageous to play it back just as soon, if it helps you score a region well - because it will likely not hold it much past the next turn.


Perhaps the China Card is a twilight struggle turing test.





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Patrick Barry
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Yesterday I played a game against a guy who didn't know that he was supposed to hold on to the China Card indefinitely and it was more fun to see it get played and to be able to use it. He was not an experienced player, I think, but it was still a pretty close game until he rage quit on the second to last round over my supposed extreme favor with the RNG gods. I remember later in that turn he UN'd CIA to avoid Defcon suicide, so he might have faced an empty round without playing China. Experienced players have various ways to avoid getting bit by CIA that they forget how scary it can be even to avoid Defcon suicide for novices. I had to commit Defcon suicide once on the last round of the game as the US because I was too busy trying to play a good headline and didn't even notice that I had drawn Lone Gunman and then got hit by Terrorism. People like to slag the AI, but I do think the way it uses the China Card is more in the spirit of the game as designed.
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Patrick Barry
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It is a separate issue, but I don't think Five Year Plan is really a US card at this stage in the evolution of game strategy. Most USSR players would love to get this card, even more than Thatcher I believe. By playing it at the end of the round you can get 3 ops and avoid a scoring card. That is terrific for the USSR. All the US gets out of playing it is an empty round and a coin flip as to whether you are taking away a card your opponent wants to keep or not. I think it needs to be rebalanced. I would suggest making neutral events take place as well as US events. In this sense it becomes a Defcon suicide card, though, so maybe it should just be that scoring cards are not excepted from taking effect if discarded by FYP.
 
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Patrick Barry
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alexdrazen wrote:
For game end, the China Card scores 1 VP, so not only could someone play 5 Ops in Asia on Turn 10, then they'd get a 2 VP swing in net scoring. The game balance is already built in: do you want 4-5 ops or do you want 1 VP? But you can't have both. A hand-over makes it a ridiculously easy decision, as most good players play most cards for Ops, so they almost certainly won't miss any events they cared about.


This was not my intention, but perhaps I have some sequencing not correct. As I stated, you would only hand over the China Card if you had it face up at the end of a War period. If your opponent played China on Turn 10, then you would have it face down at the end of the round and wouldn't have to hand it over so the VP would be yours.

The intent would be, if rewriting the rules, to change the end of round rules from "G. Flip China Card: If ‘The China Card’ was passed face-down during the turn, flip it face-up now." to something like "G. Respect China Card: If 'The China Card' is face-up and it is the end of Turn 3, 7, or 10, pass it face-up to your opponent. If 'The China Card' is face-down, flip it face-up. Otherwise nothing needs to be done." A flow chart would be easiest, probably, but it is not intended to be a confusing process.
 
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Alex Drazen
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Quote:
I would suggest making neutral events take place as well as US events. In this sense it becomes a Defcon suicide card, though, so maybe it should just be that scoring cards are not excepted from taking effect if discarded by FYP.


The scoring card exception is intentional design. Note that the USA can do the exact same thing in Late War with Aldrich Ames Remix, and can additionally toss scoring cards to Ask Not. The USSR can pull this trick a maximum of four times per game (initial deal, two reshuffles, plus SALT), maybe five with an exceptionally rare T10 late-war reshuffle. USA can do it twice. That's just the asymmetric nature of the game - USSR can use this to build an early lead, but communism has a shelf life. They need to get to 20 VP to win fast, since USA wins most Final Scoring games (assuming good play and reasonable luck for both players).

Quote:
This was not my intention, but perhaps I have some sequencing not correct. As I stated, you would only hand over the China Card if you had it face up at the end of a War period. If your opponent played China on Turn 10, then you would have it face down at the end of the round and wouldn't have to hand it over so the VP would be yours.


Still no real reason not to play China on T10 in this variant, because if you lose it anyway and will lose the VP, might as well get 4-5 ops. But the receiver likely won't get to play it.

I still think giving USA China Card before Mid War is suicidal play by USSR which, if forced, gives the USA a clear and convincing advantage, as USA can simply hold China Card from T4 headline to T7 AR7 which will push the USSR into either DEFCON suicide and/or terrible plays, changing game balance too much.

Or you're just saying the USSR should play China on Turn 2 and force the USA to play it and give it back on Turn 3 lest they give it up for free, but that's effectively just a 2-4 ops handicap to the USA specific to turn 2, as they'd probably normally be playing a 1-3 op card there instead of a free China.

I just don't agree anything is wrong with current strategy. Of course, my play style is focused on flexibility, so I am loathe to play China without a good reason, as it is the card that keeps your hand the most flexible.
 
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Patrick Barry
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[q="alexdrazen"]
Quote:
The scoring card exception is intentional design. Note that the USA can do the exact same thing in Late War with Aldrich Ames Remix, and can additionally toss scoring cards to Ask Not. The USSR can pull this trick a maximum of four times per game (initial deal, two reshuffles, plus SALT), maybe five with an exceptionally rare T10 late-war reshuffle. USA can do it twice. That's just the asymmetric nature of the game - USSR can use this to build an early lead, but communism has a shelf life. They need to get to 20 VP to win fast, since USA wins most Final Scoring games (assuming good play and reasonable luck for both players).


I am mad at FYP because of one game as the US where I had really strong Early War hands and was dominating Asia and Asia Scoring had to come out on the 3rd turn and yet the USSR got dealt it AND were lucky enough to be dealt FYP out of the reshuffle. Of course, my later hands were as terrible as my early ones were strong. I do not think the statistical likelihood of the US being in a strong position Early War needs such a powerful counteragent. If the game were so well balanced, then the US would not need free influence to get a balanced winning percentage.
 
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Kris Wei
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Bald Terror wrote:

I am mad at FYP because of one game as the US where I had really strong Early War hands and was dominating Asia and Asia Scoring had to come out on the 3rd turn and yet the USSR got dealt it AND were lucky enough to be dealt FYP out of the reshuffle. Of course, my later hands were as terrible as my early ones were strong. I do not think the statistical likelihood of the US being in a strong position Early War needs such a powerful counteragent. If the game were so well balanced, then the US would not need free influence to get a balanced winning percentage.


This is not logically connected.

Forgive my imitating:

I am mad at Ask Not because of one game as the USSR where I had really strong Mid War hands and was dominating Africa, Central & South America and these Scorings had to come out on the 7th turn and yet the US got dealt it AND were lucky enough to be dealt Ask Not out of the reshuffle. Of course, my later hands were as terrible as my early ones were strong.

I do not think the statistical likelihood of the USSR being in a strong position Mid War needs such a powerful counteragent.

Do you think this reasonable?

The game's imbalanced - true
5 year plan favors USSR - true
5 year plan should be modified - why we don't just remove de-stalinisation?

Also an important thing: it's not hard for US to get a strong position in Early regions, especially de-stalin happened and decol not.

Not ad hominem, just discuss the view.
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Alex Drazen
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Quote:
I am mad at FYP because of one game as the US where I had really strong Early War hands and was dominating Asia and Asia Scoring had to come out on the 3rd turn and yet the USSR got dealt it AND were lucky enough to be dealt FYP out of the reshuffle. Of course, my later hands were as terrible as my early ones were strong. I do not think the statistical likelihood of the US being in a strong position Early War needs such a powerful counteragent. If the game were so well balanced, then the US would not need free influence to get a balanced winning percentage.


So you're mad that the USSR played their hand intelligently?

There is a USSR play style that intentionally holds Five Year Plan and ignores a region, in order to focus elsewhere. It's not invalid or a game flaw just because you over-invested in Asia without knowing exactly where either Five Year Plan or Asia Scoring were. That's the game, and good players plan for that. Just like many players don't go to Pakistan or India if they don't know where Indo-Pakistani War is, because the opponent might flip it easily.

Do you think it is unbalanced that if I am USSR and have Defectors, I could safely headline Socialist Governments and coup Italy with a 4 Op card, and on a roll of 4-6, you probably can't do anything about it until the Mid War? Or how about if I headline Suez Crisis and then coup you out of Iran on a roll of 6? Even with US +2, that's Iran 0/3, and if you coup back - only 33% chance to get back to Iran - maybe I Decolonize directly into Thailand - or even better, maybe I just hit Iran to 0/0 and now you're not in the Middle East at all with no ME or Western Asia access, unless you use a Mediterranean setup as the USA.

Also remember that if USSR uses the Five Year Plan trick, they have to play EVERY card in their hand, AND they can't play China Card even if they want to (unless they also have UN Intervention). That means you'll probably get a US event. It's not usually a total freebie. There is typically some cost to doing this.

You know what card drives me nuts? ABM Treaty. Here I am as USSR, happily dominating South America, and suddenly it's even. Where are my points? How is that any different than the scoring card mechanism? (Scoring cards may not be HELD, but they are valid discards - per the designers). Why is the luck of being stuck with a scoring card OK, but the luck of having a bypass not OK? Kris is right - there is a logical inconsistency there.

And I think the game is better for the fact that there are both ways to get stuck in a bind, and ways to wiggle out from disaster. I think it fits the theme perfectly.
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Patrick Barry
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sankt wrote:

The game's imbalanced - true
5 year plan favors USSR - true
5 year plan should be modified - why we don't just remove de-stalinisation?

Also an important thing: it's not hard for US to get a strong position in Early regions, especially de-stalin happened and decol not.

Not ad hominem, just discuss the view.


I think it is unreasonable for a US event to favor the USSR, or vice versa. FYP gives the USSR a good solid 3 ops and an extremely powerful event at the same time, but to the US it gives only an event of uncertain value. I do not see the comparison to Destal. The way Destal works is in keeping with the marriage between theme and mechanics upon which the game rests and I have no quarrel with it. As far as the comparison to Ask Not: were Ask Not a USSR event and unstarred at that, then I would judge it unbalanced as much as FYP.
 
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Alex Drazen
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I think it is unreasonable for a US event to favor the USSR, or vice versa. FYP gives the USSR a good solid 3 ops and an extremely powerful event at the same time, but to the US it gives only an event of uncertain value. I do not see the comparison to Destal. The way Destal works is in keeping with the marriage between theme and mechanics upon which the game rests and I have no quarrel with it. As far as the comparison to Ask Not: were Ask Not a USSR event and unstarred at that, then I would judge it unbalanced as much as FYP.


5YP does not completely favor the USSR. Consider the situation where USSR has influence in Cuba, US headlines Duck and Cover to drop DEFCON to 2 for +3 VP, and USSR has CIA Created in hand. Oops! Now the USSR will have to space Five Year Plan, or give up the China Card and risk 5YP hitting CIA anyway - and they'll have to do it early in the turn, and they could lose a very valuable card in the process.

As I said before, to use the "five year plan trick," USSR must find a way to play every card in their hand, which usually includes USA cards, and can no longer play the China Card. It's not a free pass, nor is Aldrich Ames Remix a free pass for the USA. And USA can use 5YP against USSR as a hand-size reducer -- it's not optimal play, but I played someone who always HL'd it in my last game and it made things awkward for me.

Ask Not is starred, but can get rid of multiple scoring cards, low ops cards, and/or bad opponent cards. The USA gets one huge advantage, maybe. They also get a small one with AAR, maybe. The USSR gets 2-3 small ones, maybe, but at considerable potential risk to themselves. Seems fair enough to me.

5YP isn't the only US event to favor the USSR. The Iron Lady is often way more useful to the USSR, as it grants access to South America, and they probably already triggered Socialist Governments before activating Ms. Thatcher, anyway.

Romanian Abdication can also be more useful to the USA in a particular sequence: if Warsaw Pact is out of the deck, playing it before Independent Reds, and then triggering Truman Doctrine on Romania can net you a small dividend in Europe Scoring.

I've used Nasser to regain access to the Middle East by triggering the event first and then trying to roll a big coup while under Containment. That's a situation where Nasser is a 1 Op USSR card, but I got an advantage as the USA.

TL;DR - card play is important, and mitigating and manipulating the cards is part of the core TS skill set. "Playing the hand you're dealt" and finding clever solutions is extremely thematic for a Cold War game.
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Patrick Barry
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alexdrazen wrote:
Do you think it is unbalanced that if I am USSR and have Defectors, I could safely headline Socialist Governments and coup Italy with a 4 Op card, and on a roll of 4-6, you probably can't do anything about it until the Mid War? Or how about if I headline Suez Crisis and then coup you out of Iran on a roll of 6? Even with US +2, that's Iran 0/3, and if you coup back - only 33% chance to get back to Iran - maybe I Decolonize directly into Thailand - or even better, maybe I just hit Iran to 0/0 and now you're not in the Middle East at all with no ME or Western Asia access, unless you use a Mediterranean setup as the USA.


These are extremely powerful combos for the USSR, yes. I think they probably are unbalanced, hence the practice of giving the US extra influence. What bugs me about the FYP thing is the way it works with a supposedly US card working specifically to prevent the US from actually prospering in the Early War.

alexdrazen wrote:
You know what card drives me nuts? ABM Treaty. Here I am as USSR, happily dominating South America, and suddenly it's even. Where are my points? How is that any different than the scoring card mechanism? (Scoring cards may not be HELD, but they are valid discards - per the designers). Why is the luck of being stuck with a scoring card OK, but the luck of having a bypass not OK? Kris is right - there is a logical inconsistency there.


ABM Treaty is a powerful card, certainly, but it is a neutral card and can and should benefit either party. The difference lies with FYP being a US event. For the US to do something similar with Ask Not is harder because then he can't have any USSR event that he needs to hang on to whereas the set of scary US events in Early War is very manageable for the USSR. And the US does not get any free operations out of Ask Not, either. The issue is not whether or not there are circumstances where FYP can actually help US or hurt USSR, but where the preponderance of circumstances lie. Yes, to draw FYP is a liability for USSR if the US headlines D&C to drop Defcon to 2 and if the USSR also holds CIA Created and if US has already played Fidel. Yes, the US would happily play FYP if they knew USSR had CIA Created and if the US could headline D&C and if the US had already been able to play Fidel. But the majority of situations favor the USSR playing the US's own event and not the other way around, which is exacerbated by the event being unstarred.
 
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Derry Salewski
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You just seem really hung up on it belonging to the usa or something.

It's a card. Plain and simple. It does various things for the ussr. It does various things for the usa. It interacts with other cards.

It doesn't break the game. (Or if it does, you're not really demonstrating it.)

Is it a little learning hurdle for players to realize that just because a card has a color star doesn't mean there aren't tricky ways to benefit from it one way or the other? Yeah.

You really sound like you should be over that hurdle at this point, though, so I'd suggest trying to be.

Every card presents little learning experiences and puzzles. It's why the game is so good.

edit: wtf this thread started about the china card?
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Alex Drazen
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The difference lies with FYP being a US event. For the US to do something similar with Ask Not is harder because then he can't have any USSR event that he needs to hang on to whereas the set of scary US events in Early War is very manageable for the USSR. And the US does not get any free operations out of Ask Not, either.


The USA can discard up to their entire hand. I assure you, I've had games as the USSR where I wished I could do that in the Mid War! With 5YP, the USSR can only discard one card, and only by playing all of their others. USA could also throw USSR into Bear Trap on AR6, forcing the Soviets to play the scoring card they were about to discard -- or simply create a threat where a 3 Op card might not be enough, for example, +1 IP for overcontrol of a BG country. It requires a keen eye to sniff it out, but the "trick" can backfire, big time!

Quote:
The issue is not whether or not there are circumstances where FYP can actually help US or hurt USSR, but where the preponderance of circumstances lie. Yes, to draw FYP is a liability for USSR if the US headlines D&C to drop Defcon to 2 and if the USSR also holds CIA Created and if US has already played Fidel. Yes, the US would happily play FYP if they knew USSR had CIA Created and if the US could headline D&C and if the US had already been able to play Fidel. But the majority of situations favor the USSR playing the US's own event and not the other way around, which is exacerbated by the event being unstarred.


You are looking at the card in a vacuum and not in the context of the entire game. Self-discarding happens in one of three ways:

(1) 5YP. The USSR can get this up to 4 times a game (two shuffles plus SALT negotiations). But the odds of that are very low: it has to come out on Turn 1 or 2 and has to go to the USSR. Less than 50% chance of that happening. For USSR to get it four times they'd need to draw it all three times (less than 12.5% chance) and get SALT (so less than 6.25% chance).

(2) Aldrich Ames Remix. The USA gets to do the 5YP trick once, in the Late War. It's often quite valuable for them due to Soviet control of South America - worth 10 points.

(3) Ask Not. Sure, it costs an AR, but you can throw away all the cards you want. How many times have you wanted to throw out your whole hand? That's easily worth an empty Action Round if it's bad enough. The USSR can take advantage by playing this on AR7 - USA loses the ability and can only ditch 1-3 cards at that point, and risks "scoring-card suicide" if they draw too many. Who has the advantage with the card? It's powerful in the US hand, but weak for them in the USSR's.

On balance, each side gets to throw away a bunch of unwanted cards. But the USSR only has one method and it's only one card each time. The USA gets to get rid of way more cards overall. If the 5YP trick did not exist, Ask Not would be unbalanced too much in favor of the USA.

In fact, most cards are weaker in your opponent's hand, since they can use the Ops to negate them. De Gaulle Leads France is a USSR card. The most common result? US plays it with an empty or 1/0 France, making it 0/1, then makes it 3/1 with the ops (4*/1 under Containment), and permanently removing the communist menace from Paris. Who got the better deal there? USSR card, better result for USA. You can do things like that with almost every card in the deck. Sometimes always, sometimes only in specific circumstances (Star Wars under a Late War reshuffle with only USSR cards in the discard pile is a particularly hilarious one - it's a US card, but USSR gets one of their events again!). It's what makes the game great. The whole point of the game is crisis management, and 5YP is not the automatic free pass you make it out to be. Yes it can be nice for USSR, but holding it can also backfire big time against US handsize reducers, or Bear Trap.



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