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Android: Netrunner» Forums » Rules

Subject: Controlling the Message vs Salsette Slums rss

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Nova Cat
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Can someone explain to me why it has been ruled that Salsette Slums completely shuts down Controlling the Message?

I get the the first card isn't trashed, but removed from the game instead. What I don't get is why the second card isn't then considered the first card trashed.

The way I see it, either the first card is trashed or it’s not. If it is, then it triggers CtM. If it isn’t, then it’s not the first card trashed, and the next card trashed will trigger CtM. There is no other logical option.
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Carl
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There's been a pretty extensive discussion of this on StimHack:

http://forum.stimhack.com/t/salsette-ctm-discussion-thread/7...
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Aaron E.
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Here's the piece of logic that convinced me:

There's a difference between something meeting its trigger condition, and actually being triggered.

CTM meets its trigger condition when the runner goes to trash the card, but by the time salsette slums gets done interacting with it, CTM has nothing to do anymore.

Right, wrong or somewhere in the middle, I'm fine with the ruling and can sleep at night.
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Tommy Roman
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Another explanation, same conclusion:

Salsette Slums contains the word "instead", will means this is a replacement effect: the corp card is no longer being trashed but is removed from the game. This replacement effect occurs before the CtM trigger can activate, and therefore CtM never meets its trigger condition.

Since SS isn't unique and can occur once per turn, a string of 3 slums could invalidate a lot of opportunities for CtM to trigger (assuming the Runner has the credits to pay all those trash costs).

Perhaps Employee Strike would be a more economical option?
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Alan Castree
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tommygunn2011 wrote:
Since SS isn't unique and can occur once per turn, a string of 3 slums could invalidate a lot of opportunities for CtM to trigger (assuming the Runner has the credits to pay all those trash costs).


First of... Salaet Slums should be unique. I'm sure they will errata that in the future. That's nuts that it isn't!!

I can see how you could trigger three in a row (one trash after another) but it also it says "when" rather than "may" which leads me to think they all trigger at the same time.

Gah!! I really hate SS. That's some rediculous annoying shit. There must be this Whizzard build with Polotical Operatves and other shinanagins to just remove tons of the corps cards from play.... Or worse yet. Kim removing operations from game. Or some Imp crap to remove anything from
That game. Then to be able to do that three times in a row? Ugh... Sounds like it could be really in fun to play agaisnst.

Guess it's good anti Museum though...

Anyways, back to the running stuff. It's a little hard to wrap your head around but I can see how the ruling is consistent. I liked the comparison to Secirity Testing and Sneakdoor. The trigger still happened, but the state of the game no longer exists. Similar to Tutoring for a program but not being able to pay for it. You still have to shuffle your deck even though a card wasn't tutored.
 
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Andrew Keddie
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FWIW, Kim can't remove Operations from the game with his ability. He isn't paying a trash cost. Same with Imp.

Anyway, to clarify the ruling, this is from the Stimhack discussion (and is AFAIK the official reasoning behind the interaction).

Quote:
1.The runner pays the trash cost of the card to trash it

1.1. Salsette Slums meets its trigger condition and triggers
1.1.1. Salsette Slums resolves and puts its replacement effect into play


2.The card is trashed

2.1. Both Salsette Slums and Controlling the Message care about this game event. CtM meets its trigger condition, but has not yet triggered because there is a simultaneous effect to resolve first.
2.1.1. The constant effect from Salsette Slums is faster than triggered abilities. It replaces the card being trashed with removing that card from the game.
2.1.2. CtM goes to trigger and can't because its trigger condition is no longer met.

... Sometime later that turn ...

1.The runner pays the trash cost of a second card to trash it
2.The card is trashed

And that's it. Nothing else to record in the game log. Controlling the Message can see that its trigger condition isn't being met by step 43 because this is the second time its trigger condition would have been met.
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Nova Cat
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Thanks, Commissar. That helped a lot. I guess the truck is understanding that replacement/prevention effects still allow the original event to happen, triggering all applicable triggers, but then they "un-happen" the original event. And a conditional ability's triggering condition must still be true when it resolves, which is why Film Critic works the way it does.

I think the confusion for me was understanding that replacement effects "undo" the event they modify, rather than literally preventing/replacing them.
 
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Grant Whitesell

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This also is relevant to Inside Job/Security Nexus, etc. shutting down the new Weyland ID completely.
 
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