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Forbidden Stars» Forums » General

Subject: Time for the first Samuel Bailey Kickstarter game? rss

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Salman Qaisar
United Kingdom
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Sooooo Mr Bailey (insert Agent Smith voice),
Is it time for u to design and bring to KS a game with minis, cards and dice that has no particular IP, other than being in a distant space setting with techno-fantasy factions
- However (purely coincidentally, of course) it has remarkable compatibility with a certain game from FFG. surprise
Seems to seemlessly integrate with the factions from this other game, but offers very interesting + new interactions, and variety that would never ever come because FFG lost the rights to that IP.

I think that could be a very successful kickstarter.

In all seriousness, is there any reason why this idea could not work?

Who else supports this idea?

Maybe with enough encouragement, Samuel will accept the challenge.

Btw. Jamey Stegmaier's website gives a lot of excellent advice on how to setup + conduct a KS campaign.

http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter/lessons/

Sal.
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Salman Qaisar
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paradoxes wrote:
GW is VERY zealous in regards to protecting their copyrights. I'm no lawyer but it seems to me that could be a problem.


I think it can be worked around:
- recent ruling clarified that there is no copyright on mechanisms
- and obviously dont use names/terms from GW (Goat Wardens shake ) lore

In fact FFG ( Fantastic Fun Games for me! I love their games) already did this with Rex - it's Dune reworked, without the permission for the licence - same mechanisms, but invented their own names + terms.

And to be fair to FFG, they should have first dibs on making a game that effectively is an expansion to FS by doing the same as with Rex.

But if they're not interested, then maybe Samuel is.
Hence my suggestion.

Regards, Sal
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Andy Szymas
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Zalman wrote:

I think it can be worked around:
- recent ruling clarified that there is no copyright on mechanisms
- and obviously dont use names/terms from GW (Goat Wardens shake ) lore


The issue is that even if you are perfectly in the clear legally, GW/FFG can no doubt outspend you and force you spend way too much money defending that you are perfectly in the clear.
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Salman Qaisar
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AndySzy wrote:
Zalman wrote:

I think it can be worked around:
- recent ruling clarified that there is no copyright on mechanisms
- and obviously dont use names/terms from GW (Goat Wardens shake ) lore


The issue is that even if you are perfectly in the clear legally, GW/FFG can no doubt outspend you and force you spend way too much money defending that you are perfectly in the clear.


Well that's what I mean.
FFG should have first refusal to make this.
Maybe reach out to FFG first, see if they're willing to consider this (maybe employ Samuel as a contractor for such a game). Thus they can make money from it too.

If they have no such plans even in medium-longterm, then could ask for their permission to go ahead (just to know their intentions court-wise - although it would be a waste of money for them to block this game, if they had NO intention to support FS in future).

I don't FFG are the problem here, license is GW's + from sounds of it, they're the stumbling block to the FS expansion (only based on following these threads, I have no insider knowledge).

And u don't have to make factions like GW lore anyway, the point is to get new stuff that can be used to increase fun, variability + replayability of FS.
I don't care about GW lore.

For me FFG or Samuel can make their own races (as long as they're interesting and fun).

Many doors unexplored yet, never know if one might open.
Sal
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Marc Bennett
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AndySzy wrote:
Zalman wrote:

I think it can be worked around:
- recent ruling clarified that there is no copyright on mechanisms
- and obviously dont use names/terms from GW (Goat Wardens shake ) lore


The issue is that even if you are perfectly in the clear legally, GW/FFG can no doubt outspend you and force you spend way too much money defending that you are perfectly in the clear.


but the point here is the only challenge they could make is art, lore and rulebook text. they couldnt make a challenge based on game mechanics.
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Brian Hegerty
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It seems like it would be very possible to make a new game (not an expansion) that would interact with the existing game (like Dominion Intrigue is a standalone game, but acts as an expansion). However, as was pointed out they might have to face a legal challenge (which might be invalid) that could cost too much to handle.

That being said, I'd buy the *explicative* out of that KS.

Actually, even it it didn't interact with the base game, it would still be an immediate purchase for me.

If I didn't love the Dune IP, I'd be happy to have bought Rex.

Similarly, I would be very happy to play this game with any space fantasy theme (and it wants expansions soo bad).
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Salman Qaisar
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Neub wrote:
It seems like it would be very possible to make a new game (not an expansion) that would interact with the existing game (like Dominion Intrigue is a standalone game, but acts as an expansion).

That being said, I'd buy the *explicative* out of that KS.

Similarly, I would be very happy to play this game with any space fantasy theme (and it wants expansions soo bad).


That's exactly what I mean - an independent game, that interacts well with FS.
Make new factions, lore, art, even terminology - nothing to do with GW.

Maybe pitch it to a big company, like CMON, who can deal with legalities + have experience with KS + minis games.

Hell, if the support of a big company can be gained, don't even mention any relationship to FS - but when people start hearing about it , the mechanisms will clue up most people.
And BGG lol.
Sal
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Guido Gloor
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Ostermundigen
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AndySzy wrote:
Zalman wrote:

I think it can be worked around:
- recent ruling clarified that there is no copyright on mechanisms
- and obviously dont use names/terms from GW (Goat Wardens shake ) lore

The issue is that even if you are perfectly in the clear legally, GW/FFG can no doubt outspend you and force you spend way too much money defending that you are perfectly in the clear.

Hooray for the US legal system

Anyway, I'd love a Samual Bailey Kickstarter, but I'd be perfectly fine with it being something new altogether
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Kristo Vaher
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Whatever happens, please DO NOT make anything with Games Workshop license, even as 'compatible' with Forbidden Stars.

I would like to see the designer unleash their own creativity and create a spiritual successor for Forbidden Stars that has the whole asymmetric factions, modular map and action system. And also has that absolutely amazing combat system that has two axes, destruction and morale.

I could see a successful Kickstarter for something like this even if it does not include different miniatures for every faction. It is hard to compete with production quality of Forbidden Stars, but it's possible to outdo it in gameplay and content.
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Samuel Bailey
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As much as I would love to see more content that would be compatible with Forbidden Stars, and work on such content, pursuing it for monetary gain would not be a good idea legally, or probably professionally.

But never fear, I am working on a new game with Patrick Leder (designer, developer, and publisher of Vast:Crystal Caverns), called Deep. It's a 4x Sci-fi game where each person gets 1x. Check out the WIP thread here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/23537623#23537623
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Richard Sampson
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There is also the issue that Sam didn't design a large part of the game. Besides the combat system, a significant portion of the game is almost a direct copy from StarCraft: The Board Game which he had no part in designing. It would really only be possible if FFG allowed him to use the underlying system.
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Marc Bennett
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ras2124 wrote:
There is also the issue that Sam didn't design a large part of the game. Besides the combat system, a significant portion of the game is almost a direct copy from StarCraft: The Board Game which he had no part in designing. It would really only be possible if FFG allowed him to use the underlying system.


again systems and mechanics cannot be copyrighted. you can have an exact copy of another game as long as none of the rulebook or artwork is copied, you should be fine. however i respect the designers wishes to go off in a new direction. i would probably do the same if i were him.
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Richard Sampson
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Klaxas wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
There is also the issue that Sam didn't design a large part of the game. Besides the combat system, a significant portion of the game is almost a direct copy from StarCraft: The Board Game which he had no part in designing. It would really only be possible if FFG allowed him to use the underlying system.


again systems and mechanics cannot be copyrighted. you can have an exact copy of another game as long as none of the rulebook or artwork is copied, you should be fine. however i respect the designers wishes to go off in a new direction. i would probably do the same if i were him.
He would have the change the terms so no "order system" as that could be patented (similar to how "tapping" via Magic is a patent). It would also be in pretty poor taste so it makes sense for him to go his own way.

Regardless, I wish Sam luck, and hope FFG can find a way to bring an expansion of some form.
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Samuel Bailey
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While it is true that mechanics can't be directly copyrighted, it would still be a pretty dick move to steal game mechanics from the people I worked with on Forbidden Stars.

One day I would like to make a game that is like Forbidden Stars, as I enjoy that type of game, making something compatible with FS would not be very feasible, and disrespectful to my past coworkers at FFG.
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Marc Bennett
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ras2124 wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
ras2124 wrote:
There is also the issue that Sam didn't design a large part of the game. Besides the combat system, a significant portion of the game is almost a direct copy from StarCraft: The Board Game which he had no part in designing. It would really only be possible if FFG allowed him to use the underlying system.


again systems and mechanics cannot be copyrighted. you can have an exact copy of another game as long as none of the rulebook or artwork is copied, you should be fine. however i respect the designers wishes to go off in a new direction. i would probably do the same if i were him.
He would have the change the terms so no "order system" as that could be patented (similar to how "tapping" via Magic is a patent). It would also be in pretty poor taste so it makes sense for him to go his own way.

Regardless, I wish Sam luck, and hope FFG can find a way to bring an expansion of some form.


i dont think "order system" can be patented because other games already use things called "order systems" its a pretty generic term. the concept of tapping had never been seen before so thats why they were allowed the patent.

i do agree it would be in fairly poor taste even though im sure i would participate i would love more forbidden stars factions.
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Mike Romeo
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Is Forbidden Stars officially over? :'(
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Richard Sampson
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KingAnus3 wrote:

Is Forbidden Stars officially over? :'(
There hasn't been an official statement yet. However, all of the GW products from FFG seem dead after this year (the LCGs will finish their current cycles) so it is widely believed that their license with GW is over.
 
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John Mauney
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With the acclaim from this game, I'd be surprised if FFG isn't retheming this to the Twilight Imperium setting as we speak.
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Salman Qaisar
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Big J Money wrote:
With the acclaim from this game, I'd be surprised if FFG isn't retheming this to the Twilight Imperium setting as we speak.


Yes that is what I'm hoping for too!
Although it would have made sense to keep Samuel working for FFG if they are actually planning it.

Retrospectively, I wonder why FFG even bothered with GW for this, the game is so solid that it would have been a great entry to embellish their Twilight imperium universe... AND not be at the mercy of other companies.

Anyway looking forward to Samuel and FFG future games (hopefully not all SW or GOT).

Also, Samuel I appreciate your integrity + loyalty to FFG, I think it's highly commendable.
I only meant that either FFG would do its own expansion (a la Rex, ie rethemed eg with TI factions battling the base game factions) OR ffg giving u permission to go with it.

Either way, I mainly was raising ideas for brainstorming, and would not want u to do anything u felt was unethical.

That said... There still must be a way to get more content for the game ... even just alternative combat + event cards that change the dynamics of the game.
Like those small Game of Thrones expansions.

Anyone know best way to convince FFG of anything?
Polls? Emails?
Anyone buddy's with Christian Petersen?

Desparate times call for ... legal + ethical measures!

Sal
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Allan Rodda
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Because there are people who will buy the game because it is good, and people who will buy the game because they love the 40k setting. The same thing can't really be said about the Twilight Imperium universe.
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Nik Degtyarenko
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Age of conan got expansion from same people whodeveloped it even if they dont onw it anymore. Its was mostly print and play or just altering rules and adding new mechanics but still a good expansion.
 
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