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Fury of Dracula (third edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: Heroic Leap card w/multiple hunters in combat rss

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Alessandro Arantes
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One question about the mechanics involving the card HEROIC LEAP. It says "Play at the start of combat - instead of resolving combat, you take 5 damage, and the vamppire takes 5 damage".

OK, that's all nice and easy when it's a 1v1 combat, but what if there are multiple hunters in combat? Does the WHOLE combat end? or the hunter who played the card gets removed from combat taking 5 dmg and dealing 5 dmg to the vampire and the combat starts normally with the remaining hunters?

Also, if the combat ends, does EVERY HUNTER take 5 damage and deal 5 damage to the vampire, or just the hunter who played the card?

That was the pivot question on our previous game - We found Dracula and ganged up on him (3v1) with 2 turns for him to win (influence was at 12 and 3rd despair token would be placed at the end of the current turn). One of the hunters (Lord Godalming) had a BITE TOKEN in a previous combat, and he wanted to use the card to deal dmg to dracula and withdraw from combat, since if he was bitten again, he would be defeated and Dracula would win. HOWEVER, ending combat means Dracula would escape to sea in his turn before we had the chance to engage him again, and we would be unable to battle him again before he won the game (he had 11 damage, counting the 5 from heroic leap - He'd take 2 dmg from entering sea, and then 1 in the subsequent turn, but the "Fury of Dracula" hability would trigger and give him the influence he needed to win before he died.

So, one more time, the question is, how Heroic Leap works when there are multiple hunters in combat? If the combat didn't end, and just Lord Godalming would deal dmg and be removed from combat, then the other 2 hunters had a shot at killing Dracula before he won.
 
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Jon Hook
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Okay, I think the order of operations would be thus...

1. The Hunter with the HEROIC LEAP card plays it at the start of combat, so I believe this card is played before the 8 steps of combat noted in the Rules Reference book (pg.5).

2. The Hunter player and Dracula player resolve the effects of the HEROIC LEAP card before combat is calculated.

3. Then, if Dracula is being attacked by multiple Hunters, then Dracula and the remaining Hunters resolve a normal combat round.

4. If for any reason that combat has not ended, then all Hunters and Dracula prepare for another round of combat.
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Alessandro Arantes
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The main discussion on the table was that some people interpreted that the "combat" the Heroic Leap card refers to is comprised as the entire encounter with dracula, including all hunters. And the correct interpretation is that the effect of the card is resolved by the hunter who played it, and the ENTIRE COMBAT ends, and the other hunters sharing the location do NOTHING - The card actually prevented the entire combat from happening, INCLUDING THE OTHER HUNTERS.We'd only have the chance to engage him again at the next dusk/dawn, if Dracula Don't go back into hiding.

I found that interpretation REALLY odd, that card having the exact same effect with one or multiple hunters, and the other hunters not participating whatsoever in the combat, and making dracula disengage.
 
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Kelly B
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I think it it ends the combat for all hunters.

Learn to Play examples of how "combat" is referred to:

(Header) "Combat"
"If a hunter is on the same city as Dracula at dawn or dusk, combat occurs".
"Before combat begins,..."

"Combat" is consistently referred to as a specific part of the turn (similar to a phase).

Also, there is not a specific check for each hunter individually for "combat" to occur. It says:

"Although the above rules are written with only one hunter in combat, multiple hunters can be in the same combat
with Dracula."


Therefore when Heroic Leap says "Instead of resolving combat...", it is referring to the combat you just started, no matter how many hunters are participating. That entire combat is replaced ("instead") by the rest of the card's effects.

For the second question about who takes damage, the card says "you suffer 5 damage" referring to the hunter/player that played the card, not any others.
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Mark L
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I agree with Jon -- I think the text on the card ("instead of resolving combat") applies only to the hunter who plays it. Any other hunters present would still resolve combat as normal.

It could be clearer, but I see no reason to suppose it affects all hunters present.
 
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Mark L
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traemyn wrote:
I think it it ends the combat for all hunters.

You posted while I was typing.

I take your point that "combat" is repeatedly used to mean the whole combat, but remember that those are general rules and individual cards can override them.

In this case, when the card says "instead of resolving combat, you suffer 5 damage" I take that to mean that you (the player who played the card) do not resolve combat but instead take 5 damage.

Even under normal circumstances, one hunter can be put out of a combat while Dracula continues to battle the other hunters present. I see this as similar; one hunter is removed from the combat but that doesn't mean there is no combat.

If it said "combat does not take place" I might agree with you. But as it is I just think it's yet another case of FFG not making their rules clear enough.
 
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Chris Merritt
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xipuloxx wrote:
traemyn wrote:
I think it it ends the combat for all hunters.

You posted while I was typing.

I take your point that "combat" is repeatedly used to mean the whole combat, but remember that those are general rules and individual cards can override them.

In this case, when the card says "instead of resolving combat, you suffer 5 damage" I take that to mean that you (the player who played the card) do not resolve combat but instead take 5 damage.

Even under normal circumstances, one hunter can be put out of a combat while Dracula continues to battle the other hunters present. I see this as similar; one hunter is removed from the combat but that doesn't mean there is no combat.

If it said "combat does not take place" I might agree with you. But as it is I just think it's yet another case of FFG not making their rules clear enough.


I'm more in agreement with traemyn. While it may just be poor wording on FFG's part, as written it says "Instead of resolving combat..." which suggests that combat as a whole will not be resolved.

As you say, individual cards can override the general rules, and that's exactly what is happening here. Combat should occur when Dracula and one or more hunters are at the same location, but this card overrides that and prevents the combat from occurring while damaging the hunter that played the card and Dracula.

Had combat been meant to continue for any other hunters, the card should have read, "Instead of resolving combat for this hunter..."
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Randal Divinski
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My believe is that playing Heroic Leap replaces the entire combat with the 5 damage to the hunter who played it [and if that kills him and his death gives Dracula enough points, game ends], followed by 5 damage to Dracula. Even if other hunters are present, there is no combat.

A separate issue: there is a mistake in the OP about the game condition. If Dracula were to go to sea at that point, he would not win immediately, because Fury of Dracula DOES NOT TRIGGER while he is at sea. Dracula only receives points for moving to a land location.
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Alessandro Arantes
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randiv wrote:
A separate issue: there is a mistake in the OP about the game condition. If Dracula were to go to sea at that point, he would not win immediately, because Fury of Dracula DOES NOT TRIGGER while he is at sea. Dracula only receives points for moving to a land location.


Sorry, it was a mistake of my part. He'd gain the influence when he in the next turn moved to another port from the sea. In our game, we ended up assuming your interpretation, then he entered sea through Nantes (where the combat happened/not), and went to england in the next turn, which triggered his victory.
 
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Randal Divinski
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AlexSkylark wrote:
randiv wrote:
If Dracula were to go to sea at that point, he would not win immediately, because Fury of Dracula DOES NOT TRIGGER while he is at sea.


Sorry, it was a mistake of my part. He'd gain the influence when he in the next turn moved to another port from the sea. In our game, we ended up assuming your interpretation, then he entered sea through Nantes (where the combat happened/not), and went to england in the next turn, which triggered his victory.


The "sail to victory" ending in FoD is about as satisfying is determining the World Cup with penalty kicks. Ugh. Check out the variants discussion, if you want to tweak it: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1526813/tweaking-fury-dracu...
 
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Alessandro Arantes
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What do you guys think would be the beast means of reaching out to FFG / the designers about this?
 
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Kelly B
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I confirmed with Frank from FFG that the entire combat is replaced. No hunters continue combat after Heroic Leap has been played.
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Craig Bocketti
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AlexSkylark wrote:
What do you guys think would be the beast means of reaching out to FFG / the designers about this?


You can always go to FFG site and contact them about rules questions. They have a place on their customer service page https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/more/customer-service/
 
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joekeck
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traemyn wrote:
I confirmed with Frank from FFG that the entire combat is replaced. No hunters continue combat after Heroic Leap has been played.

that's so weird to me
even though that's the official ruling, I doubt I would play it that way because it just doesn't make sense thematically that the entire combat ends just cause one dude takes a dive

instead I think it should work this way:
play at the start of combat
you suffer 5 damage
then the vampire suffers 5 damage
then you are removed from combat
["you" refers to the individual hunter who played the card]
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Chris Merritt
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keckles wrote:
traemyn wrote:
I confirmed with Frank from FFG that the entire combat is replaced. No hunters continue combat after Heroic Leap has been played.

that's so weird to me
even though that's the official ruling, I doubt I would play it that way because it just doesn't make sense thematically that the entire combat ends just cause one dude takes a dive

instead I think it should work this way:
play at the start of combat
you suffer 5 damage
then the vampire suffers 5 damage
then you are removed from combat
["you" refers to the individual hunter who played the card]


I think it makes perfect thematic sense. Dracula or the vampire got unexpectedly injured and runs away. Actual predators in the wild will do this as well, and vampires are nothing if not predators.

The remaining hunters stop to care for their wounded friend. The only time it may not make sense would be if the hunter died as the others would probably pursue the killer for vengeance, but even then it is not inconceivable that a vampire would manage to elude its pursuers.
 
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joekeck
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COMaestro wrote:
keckles wrote:
traemyn wrote:
I confirmed with Frank from FFG that the entire combat is replaced. No hunters continue combat after Heroic Leap has been played.

that's so weird to me
even though that's the official ruling, I doubt I would play it that way because it just doesn't make sense thematically that the entire combat ends just cause one dude takes a dive

instead I think it should work this way:
play at the start of combat
you suffer 5 damage
then the vampire suffers 5 damage
then you are removed from combat
["you" refers to the individual hunter who played the card]


I think it makes perfect thematic sense. Dracula or the vampire got unexpectedly injured and runs away. Actual predators in the wild will do this as well, and vampires are nothing if not predators.

The remaining hunters stop to care for their wounded friend. The only time it may not make sense would be if the hunter died as the others would probably pursue the killer for vengeance, but even then it is not inconceivable that a vampire would manage to elude its pursuers.


if that's how you want to play/explain it in yer game, theres certainly nothing wrong with that
but all of that is yer own story that yer adding to it
the card itself says nothing about the vampire running away or hunters stopping to care for their injured homie
you can make thematic sense out of anything by making up yer own reasons for it

I stand by my previous statement
after all, if you and some of yer strongest, most fearless buddies were in an actual combat with a real-life vampire and one of you does something life-risking/self-sacrificing like a heroic leap,
everyone else would then have a *decision* / *choice* to make
the vampire might choose to run, or he might stay and fight (for pride, revenge) (and vamps in this game don't automatically run away when unexpectedly injured with the 5 total damage from a gun with holy bullets either)
the rest of you could choose to stop fighting to help yer fallen comrade (a bad move if the vamp has decided to continue attacking), or you could choose to continue doing all you can to rid the world of vampires (exactly what the hunter characters in this game are determined to do) - possibly even preventing the vamp from escaping (a choice which numerous combat/item/event cards give you), or some of you could help the buddy while others continued fighting
Actual predators in the wild who get unexpectedly injured sometimes choose to stay and fight, especially if they still have plenty of health left, if their prey is noticeably weak, and/or if they believe they can outsmart their prey


the person who plays the heroic leap card is making a choice/decision of what that character does
it should not take the decisions away from the other combatants imo
that does not make thematic sense to me
and I don't feel it makes sense in terms of gameplay mechanics either
 
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David Williams
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Isn't this card based specifically on something that happens in the book?

I think I saw it mentioned that one of the hunters leaps at Dracula and they both fall through or out of a window, after which Dracula escaped and the hunter was injured by the fall. Doesn't the flavour text on the card allude to something like that?

Thematically this makes perfect sense of the entire combat being avoided, though it might make more sense of Dracula also took a bit of damage as well.

The whole card didn't make much sense to me until I read this, as it conjured up an image of someone leaping away or out of the way rather than at Dracula. They could have made the scenario clearer with a bit more flavour text I think.
 
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Orion3T wrote:
... Doesn't the flavour text on the card allude to something like that?

no, it just says "for all of those that we had left behind, I knew I must not hesitate, even if it be my doom"
and the 2nd edition version of the card has no flavour text
if the game was trying to recreate that scene with this card, then the card would make thematic sense to me, but they definitely should have made a clear reference to it on the card
but I think its unlikely that theyre trying to put any particular book scene into this game because the events of this game occur 8 years after the events of the novel
 
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David Williams
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keckles wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
... Doesn't the flavour text on the card allude to something like that?

no, it just says "for all of those that we had left behind, I knew I must not hesitate, even if it be my doom"
and the 2nd edition version of the card has no flavour text
if the game was trying to recreate that scene with this card, then the card would make thematic sense to me, but they definitely should have made a clear reference to it on the card


OK I found the previous discussion I had in mind, and it doesn't refer to the book. It's just someone's interpretation of what is happening, I think:

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21205180#21205180

Quote:
but I think its unlikely that theyre trying to put any particular book scene into this game because the events of this game occur 8 years after the events of the novel


While the comment I was thinking of doesn't say it's from the book, I did think the flavour texts were quotes from the book. However, I haven't read it, so I don't know! It was just an assumption on my part I think.

That said, I think most of what's in the game is based on stuff that happens in the book. It might be set later, but similar types of events will take place because the scenario is basically the same. So if this did happen in the book, there's no reason something similar couldn't happen again.

Anyway, the card makes a lot more sense if you interpret it this way; the hunter is leaping AT the count, and hoping to knock him into danger (a train perhaps?) or make him fall to his death, even if it means they die themselves. As a result they both get hurt and the count is forced to flee to avoid being defeated altogether.

The flavour text does at least suggest that sort of scenario, I think. Though I would agree it could have been a bit more clear on the scenario the designer had in mind.
 
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