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bryan yong
Singapore
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Hi guys first post on bgg so feedback is much appreciated!

1) Replayability

I'm thinking of late-backing this game. I own imperial assault and zombicide, so I have experience with both "objective based dungeon crawlers" and something from cmon. This seems like imperial assault lite without the dungeon master which would fulfill a niche for my 12yro sister who looks at my plays of imperial assault with envy. However, I am concerned with the replayability of this game as I got tired of zombicide s1 pretty quickly. I have read the rulebook and gameplay seems fun, but potentially samey after 2 games. It seems like gameplay boils down to " get to this point while clearing mobs which vary from game to game". Here's where I am puzzled: this sounds very much like both imperial assault and zombicide s1. But I got bored of zombicide s1 real quick and can't seem to get enough of imperial assault. Any third party view on why I feel this way would be greatly appreciated(blunt and sneaky comments equally welcomed. Y'all took the effort to reply so I believe y'all have your reasons ). I don't believe having a player overlord controlling the mobs is the reason as I love Eldritch horror and lotr lcg which are dead ai. Yea I'm stumped and thus can't tell if MD would be another hit or miss for me.


2) Suggestions For Carrying Characters Through Playthroughs


Many people seem to be annoyed at being unable to develop their own characters through different scenarios. After some thought (all 10min of it so take with pinch of salt), I have come up with a system that I want to run with you guys:
1) on top of having to unlock the previous skill in the skill tree to unlock a new skill, players have to have an extra ski unlocked in the previous level to unlock a new skill. Hence unlocking your first level 2 skill requires 2 level one skis already learnt. Your second level 2 skill require 3 level 1 skill. Your third level 2 skill requires 4 level one skills. In the event you have maxed out an earlier level, pay extra exp equal to the cheapest skill of that tier to 'unlock the pre-requisite for the new skill'.
2) On top of having to spend exp to unlock skills, players have to pay exp each time they activate a skill. Exp cost of skills is equal to their level.
3) Players can only use equipment which corresponds to their highest skill level-1 of the same type. Skills related to shadow would enable range and magic equipment of tier equal to skill level. Skills on item trading and swapping actions would enable items of tier equal to skill level+1. So for example I have a level 2 skill which gives me +1 melee, I would then be able to use tier 1 melee equipment. Of course starting equipment are exempt.
3) Item transmutation would destroy an item to allow me to draw cards from top of treasure deck equal to (total tier of items transmuted)/2. Exception for tier 5 items which can never be created through transmutation.
4) Starting enemy levels is equal to average level of all heroes in party rounded down. Highest enemy level is equal to level of highest hero. In between will be some sort of gradient (sorry but proper equation will require more info for balance).

So tell me what you think!

Ps, was typed on my mobile so forgive me for formatting issues, and feedback on them.
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bryan yong
Singapore
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Ok after sitting on my throne of inspiration I think that it would be more balanced for the 'blank pre-requisite skill' to be sth along the lines of "bans and diamonds give additional x/2 discount to the activation of skills for that roll no rounding." Where x is the level in which you require a prerequisite skill.
 
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QorDaq H'Nter
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Hiya Bryan, welcome to the wondrous lifestyle choice of becoming a poster at BGG...*Chuckle*...

As to item #1: Replayability.

Since none of us have played yet, clearly, I think it's going to be difficult to answer to this point with any authority. However, there may be enough in common with Z:BP to sort of use that as a benchmark.

Which, succinctly, would be that while everyone's mileage may vary, I'm thinking that those who basically like Zcide levels of interaction and game A.I. will likely enjoy MD at a similar level, while those that find the Zcide games to be lacking are less likely to be amused.

I feel that MD was Guillotine Games' answer to all of the feedback during the Kickstarter for Black Plague that was asking for a broader fantasy approach to the Zcide universe. How well this was achieved; remains to be seen.

You mentioned your 12 year-old sister looking on with envy as you play IA... Why are you not teaching her how to play that? My 6 1/2 year old son can handle Zcide, the Warhammer ACG, Shadowrun Crossfire, the D&D Adventure Board games, etc... So I'm thinking your Sister can probably grasp IA with a little guidance and help. You could even just do some RPG-lite stuff with her at first to get her used to reading the cards and such, no need to compete heavily with her out of the gate.

You also mention getting bored with Zcide Modern (S1), after a few plays. Have you played Black Plague yet? I ask because, while the theme carries through better in some ways, what really sets it apart for me, is that the rules have been tweaked. In many ways it's really a Zcide 2.0 with a medieval-fantasy skin.

Point there being, that Zcide Modern is good, and got better with each Season, but Black Plague knocked it out of the park... But it's still a Co-Op skirmish game first and RPG-lite second. I expect that in many ways, MD will deliver a similar type of experience at the end of the day. So if you are not really that impressed by the various versions of Zcide, at a guess, I'd say that will be the case with MD as well.

But again, none of us REALLY know for sure what the MD experience will be like.

As to your second Item: Deepening the Character continuity and progression game-to-game...

Well, in my opinion, one of the things that people were really wanting for MD included an A.I. driven RPG-lite game. I don't really think that's what will be delivered... It looks to me, like it's another primarily co-op skirmish entry.

Frankly, after playing a few games to get the hang of what MD is, I fully plan on combining it with elements of Black Plague and writing up a unique ruleset to scratch that itch. It's never going to be a HeroQuest or Warhammer Quest kind of Dungeon Crawler out of the box, it's just not designed to be. Those who are expecting that are likely to be disappointed.

I feel that the basics are there between Z:BP and MD, to create a mash up that will more closely resemble that classic Crawler many have been waiting for, and I plan to do just that instead of trying to "Fix" either game.

I love Z:BP, actually I really like all iterations of Zcide to date, but they are still just skirmish games. I believe at its core, Massive Darkness will be as well.

Now, going back to your earlier comment about your sister and gaming:


Get her gaming any way you can! Don't wait a year for MD to come out and possibly be what she's wanting, figure it out now by introducing her to a range of games that are available today.

Okay, gamer rant over...*Chuckle*...

Enough wall of text from me.

Again, welcome to the world of BGG posting, and I look forward to hearing your further thoughts on these and or other related topics.







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John Whyman
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If massive darkness is like Dungeons and Dragons there will be lots of stories. With the large variety of monsters with many more abilities than just zombies the enconters will be different. If MD is really creative there could be dialog with the game characters which is not an aspect I associate with zombies.
I am glad you brought up this topic as it justifies my not buying Zombicide and I know a backer of this game so I know what to expect should I attend a game. My observation on Zombicide is it is vastly humans thus looks boring. I have bought a couple Zombicide sets that cross over to MD and most of those are not humans so they have greater aesthetics and intrigue.
 
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Allan Rodda
Australia
Adelaide
South Australia
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I seriously doubt there is going to be 'dialog with the game characters', there's really no way to automate something like that in game without it becoming predictable after you've played it once. Aside from which it is largely out of character for what is primarily a hack and slash dungeon crawler.

If you want a game that focuses a little more on story I would look in to Myth by Megacon games. It's actually quite good, and with their recent focus on making it a more goal focused (and fixing some other issues with the first print-run) there's no reason not to check it out.
 
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C M
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bryanzyong wrote:



2) Suggestions For Carrying Characters Through Playthroughs



Use the story mode?
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Douglas Klipfel
United States
South Dakota
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bryanzyong wrote:
1) Replayability


The most recent update for Massive Darkness said they are working on the Story Mode. So much so that they are changing the hero dashboard to add Micro XP. That gives me hope that the story mode could be a very in depth and rich experience. But even if it is not.

For me the replayability in this game is the roaming monsters. I want to bring them all down. It will take a lot of games before that happens. Also each time they come out they will be carrying a different weapon, making them interestingly different for each play through.

Plus you can set up your own adventures. Want to travel through the mines or Moria? Set the game up with Goblins, Orcs and the Low Troll Roaming in the Darkness....
 
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Jeroen Timmermans
Netherlands
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Windship2Mars wrote:
bryanzyong wrote:
1) Replayability


The most recent update for Massive Darkness said they are working on the Story Mode. So much so that they are changing the hero dashboard to add Micro XP. That gives me hope that the story mode could be a very in depth and rich experience. But even if it is not.

For me the replayability in this game is the roaming monsters. I want to bring them all down. It will take a lot of games before that happens. Also each time they come out they will be carrying a different weapon, making them interestingly different for each play through.

Plus you can set up your own adventures. Want to travel through the mines or Moria? Set the game up with Goblins, Orcs and the Low Troll Roaming in the Darkness....


That's what I like about the Zombicide games as well. Just the other night, we played an all-animal scenario with just Wolvez, Crowz, Wolfbomination and Abominotaur. It was crazy and we needed to play completely differently from how we normally go through a town. We essentially played a completely new game just by removing some elements and adding others.
 
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Grand Khan
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Windship2Mars wrote:
bryanzyong wrote:
1) Replayability


The most recent update for Massive Darkness said they are working on the Story Mode. So much so that they are changing the hero dashboard to add Micro XP. That gives me hope that the story mode could be a very in depth and rich experience. But even if it is not.

For me the replayability in this game is the roaming monsters. I want to bring them all down. It will take a lot of games before that happens. Also each time they come out they will be carrying a different weapon, making them interestingly different for each play through.

Plus you can set up your own adventures. Want to travel through the mines or Moria? Set the game up with Goblins, Orcs and the Low Troll Roaming in the Darkness....


I have hopes for this as well. Sadly, the tiles are not very diverse and using tiles from other games seems problematic due to the shadow / light mechanism. Maybe using light / lantern tokens could be a solution.
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Eric B
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Windship2Mars wrote:
Plus you can set up your own adventures. Want to travel through the mines or Moria? Set the game up with Goblins, Orcs and the Low Troll Roaming in the Darkness....


Don't forget the Hellsbane as a Bolrog! devil
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Douglas Klipfel
United States
South Dakota
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deathleech wrote:
Windship2Mars wrote:
Plus you can set up your own adventures. Want to travel through the mines or Moria? Set the game up with Goblins, Orcs and the Low Troll Roaming in the Darkness....


Don't forget the Hellsbane as a Bolrog! devil


Nice catch deathleech, didn't realize he was a fire demon until you mentioned it.. !!
 
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John
United States
Ridley Park
Pennsylvania
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QorDaq wrote:
Hiya Bryan, welcome to the wondrous lifestyle choice of becoming a poster at BGG...*Chuckle*...

As to item #1: Replayability.

Since none of us have played yet, clearly, I think it's going to be difficult to answer to this point with any authority. However, there may be enough in common with Z:BP to sort of use that as a benchmark.

Which, succinctly, would be that while everyone's mileage may vary, I'm thinking that those who basically like Zcide levels of interaction and game A.I. will likely enjoy MD at a similar level, while those that find the Zcide games to be lacking are less likely to be amused.

I feel that MD was Guillotine Games' answer to all of the feedback during the Kickstarter for Black Plague that was asking for a broader fantasy approach to the Zcide universe. How well this was achieved; remains to be seen.

You mentioned your 12 year-old sister looking on with envy as you play IA... Why are you not teaching her how to play that? My 6 1/2 year old son can handle Zcide, the Warhammer ACG, Shadowrun Crossfire, the D&D Adventure Board games, etc... So I'm thinking your Sister can probably grasp IA with a little guidance and help. You could even just do some RPG-lite stuff with her at first to get her used to reading the cards and such, no need to compete heavily with her out of the gate.

You also mention getting bored with Zcide Modern (S1), after a few plays. Have you played Black Plague yet? I ask because, while the theme carries through better in some ways, what really sets it apart for me, is that the rules have been tweaked. In many ways it's really a Zcide 2.0 with a medieval-fantasy skin.

Point there being, that Zcide Modern is good, and got better with each Season, but Black Plague knocked it out of the park... But it's still a Co-Op skirmish game first and RPG-lite second. I expect that in many ways, MD will deliver a similar type of experience at the end of the day. So if you are not really that impressed by the various versions of Zcide, at a guess, I'd say that will be the case with MD as well.

But again, none of us REALLY know for sure what the MD experience will be like.

As to your second Item: Deepening the Character continuity and progression game-to-game...

Well, in my opinion, one of the things that people were really wanting for MD included an A.I. driven RPG-lite game. I don't really think that's what will be delivered... It looks to me, like it's another primarily co-op skirmish entry.

Frankly, after playing a few games to get the hang of what MD is, I fully plan on combining it with elements of Black Plague and writing up a unique ruleset to scratch that itch. It's never going to be a HeroQuest or Warhammer Quest kind of Dungeon Crawler out of the box, it's just not designed to be. Those who are expecting that are likely to be disappointed.

I feel that the basics are there between Z:BP and MD, to create a mash up that will more closely resemble that classic Crawler many have been waiting for, and I plan to do just that instead of trying to "Fix" either game.

I love Z:BP, actually I really like all iterations of Zcide to date, but they are still just skirmish games. I believe at its core, Massive Darkness will be as well.

Now, going back to your earlier comment about your sister and gaming:


Get her gaming any way you can! Don't wait a year for MD to come out and possibly be what she's wanting, figure it out now by introducing her to a range of games that are available today.

Okay, gamer rant over...*Chuckle*...

Enough wall of text from me.

Again, welcome to the world of BGG posting, and I look forward to hearing your further thoughts on these and or other related topics.


Isn't there mode for having characters remain constant from one session to the next?
 
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