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Crusader Rex» Forums » Rules

Subject: Pool draw - does my opponent know who I drew? rss

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Mike Cook
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Might have missed this, but we just played that we showed each other who we got (1.4).

Thanks!
 
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Russ Williams
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Stonewall wrote:
Might have missed this, but we just played that we showed each other who we got.

I don't recall reading anything in the rules that requires you to show (in general; there is the specific case of the 9 crusader units arriving which must be shown). So we weren't showing (other than the 9 crusaders) when we played. Not showing certainly seems more consistent with the intended "fog of war".
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Rich Stone
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Stonewall wrote:
Might have missed this, but we just played that we showed each other who we got (1.4).

Thanks!


Was hoping to find an explicit reference in the rule book or an FAQ document but failed. However, I believe Russ got it exactly correct - the 9 Crusader blocks are placed face up in the holding area but none of the other draw pool pieces need to be revealed.
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Mike Cook
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That makes sense except for this one awkward consideration - does you opponent say - "he's not in his home seat or alternate seat so I'm starting him at 1 pip", and then I guess we have to believe him and not see the pip.

 
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Russ Williams
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Stonewall wrote:
That makes sense except for this one awkward consideration - does you opponent say - "he's not in his home seat or alternate seat so I'm starting him at 1 pip", and then I guess we have to believe him and not see the pip.

We saw no reason to say such info. Fog of war, after all.

If you don't trust your opponent, then you probably shouldn't be playing a block game in the first place. I think that trusting the opponent not to cheat is part of the price of admission to this kind of game with hidden info which is practically unverifiable.

(Similarly in Julius Caesar, where you can build new steps wherever you like, we don't tell the opponent where we added new steps (and the opponent does not watch while the other player builds. We only point out if a new block appeared somewhere, since that is a visible change.))
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Seth Owen
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As Russ notes, trusting your opponent is a necessary part of playing block games. There are so many ways to cheat that if an opponent is thar sort there is simply no way to verify everything. If your opponent is the kind of fellow who either chests or 'forgets' (always in his favor, of course) then these are not God games to play.

This really isn't limited to block games, almost any wargame with hidden information is susceptible.
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Edwin David Bliss
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russ wrote:
Stonewall wrote:
Might have missed this, but we just played that we showed each other who we got.

I don't recall reading anything in the rules that requires you to show (in general; there is the specific case of the 9 crusader units arriving which must be shown). So we weren't showing (other than the 9 crusaders) when we played. Not showing certainly seems more consistent with the intended "fog of war".

Re 1.4 Rules : You are not required to show what you draw at all ( including the 9 Crusader blocks ). However, those 9 blocks must each be placed into their respective National Holding Box when drawn.

[ Taken from the many Q&A on the Columbia Games Crusader Rex Forum - prior to the 2.0 Rules. ]

In truth, I see no good reason why the 9 Crusader blocks should be "shown", even under the 2.0 rules. The Holding boxes represent the "imminent" arrival of these units via Ship/s. Until they actually land ( are placed on the Map board ) the Saracens cannot possibly know which ones are about to arrive!
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Rich Stone
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DEB8 wrote:

In truth, I see no good reason why the 9 Crusader blocks should be "shown", even under the 2.0 rules. The Holding boxes represent the "imminent" arrival of these units via Ship/s. Until they actually land ( are placed on the Map board ) the Saracens cannot possibly know which ones are about to arrive!


Fair point about Saracens not knowing who's about to arrive but the 2.0 rules are explicit on the point:

"7.21 Crusaders
When drawn, German, French, and English blocks are placed face-up in their matching staging space on the west edge of the mapboard"

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Russ Williams
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DEB8 wrote:
Re 1.4 Rules : You are not required to show what you draw at all ( including the 9 Crusader blocks ). However, those 9 blocks must each be placed into their respective National Holding Box when drawn.

[ Taken from the many Q&A on the Columbia Games Crusader Rex Forum - prior to the 2.0 Rules. ]

In truth, I see no good reason why the 9 Crusader blocks should be "shown", even under the 2.0 rules. The Holding boxes represent the "imminent" arrival of these units via Ship/s. Until they actually land ( are placed on the Map board ) the Saracens cannot possibly know which ones are about to arrive!


This makes no sense to me: If you put them unrevealed into their "respective National Holding Box", then that IS telling the Saracen information (e.g. they see that there are 2 English blocks, so you only need 1 more English block to be able to start moving the English), right?

Sure, they wouldn't know the specific identity of the 2 English blocks in the English holding box, but so what? The specific identities are useless information, because the 2 blocks are doing nothing until all 3 are there.

What am I missing?

...

(And yeah, it's all a moot point with 2.0 rules which say to place them revealed.)
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Edwin David Bliss
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russ wrote:
This makes no sense to me: If you put them unrevealed into their "respective National Holding Box", then that IS telling the Saracen information (e.g. they see that there are 2 English blocks, so you only need 1 more English block to be able to start moving the English), right?

Correct.

Quote:
Sure, they wouldn't know the specific identity of the 2 English blocks in the English holding box, but so what? The specific identities are useless information, because the 2 blocks are doing nothing until all 3 are there.

What am I missing?

Nothing ( so far as I can see )... I was just "quoting" the 1.4 rules.

Quote:
(And yeah, it's all a moot point with 2.0 rules which say to place them revealed.)

Unfortunately correct...

I guess this was added to stop a form of cheating ?

[ Perchance you could previously put blocks into an incorrect Holding box ( to confuse ) and switch them later. Strictly speaking this would be against the rules, but is not unrealistic considering actual events... ]
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Russ Williams
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DEB8 wrote:
russ wrote:
What am I missing?

Nothing ( so far as I can see )... I was just "quoting" the 1.4 rules.

Aha, OK, cool. Thanks!
 
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