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Mystic Vale: Vale of Magic» Forums » General

Subject: What would this bring to the game in a pratical sense? rss

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Joao C L Mendonca
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Hello,

So has a fan of deckbuilder\cards in general i was intrigued by Mystic Vale, but then i started to read some reviews that ppl didn't like the lack of almost no interaction and that some stuff was very strong! (i'm just paraphrasing what i read so don't judge me if i'm wrong)

So my question is:

in a pratical sense what is this expansion going to bring to the game ? Or is just more cards ????

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Chad Egbert
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Jhonyb wrote:
Hello,

So has a fan of deckbuilder\cards in general i was intrigued by Mystic Vale, but then i started to read some reviews that ppl didn't like the lack of almost no interaction and that some stuff was very strong! (i'm just paraphrasing what i read so don't judge me if i'm wrong)

So my question is:

in a pratical sense what is this expansion going to bring to the game ? Or is just more cards ????



There is a lot of negative reaction to the game but there is also a lot of positive reaction too.

True there is no player interaction but there are several deck builders like that, they may not be for everyone. I'm not judging, but I don't think the advancements are that strong. Maybe when combined with others they can be, but that is part of the game.

I am curious as well what the expansion will add to the game though.
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It will add diversity. There are not a lot of advancements in the game, and some of them are too strong (mostly, all those who give VP, since the pool is so small). Obviously, the expansion will add more content, and therefore make the base advancement show less often.

It will add more risks. The advancements from the base game are pretty straightforward, and aside from the occasional "netting a massive amount of points but also giving you a decay symbol", there is no great risk involved in the base game. The new advancements will, for some of them, feature two decay symbols on the same advancement, meaning you can auto spoil with just two cards - you basically lose your whole turn. But these cards grant a massive amount of points.

It will add more diverse strategy. Up until now, you had early points, deck-thinning/decay cancelling, and/or Vale purchasing featured as the main strategies. More advancements mean more strategies, and the advancement giving you the opportunity to keep one of the cards you've played this turn for use in the next turn opens the way to some very interesting "combos".

I've only seen three cards for now but they look really interesting. Mystic Vale is too simple, too random, and the VP cards seem way too strong, for it to be a really good game as is. Let's hope this expansion adds some greatness to it.
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Stuart Holttum
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An easy way to add some interaction without major changes to the core game, would be an expansion with some negative cards in, that you buy on you turn and which have to be added to an opponents On Deck card.

Just a little bit of "take that" that could hamper a leader, and spoil a nice two-advancement card.

-1VP cards, cursed lands, or a "when you play this card you MUST immediate push on with the next card".
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Salvador C. Majoral
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Stu Holttum wrote:
An easy way to add some interaction without major changes to the core game, would be an expansion with some negative cards in, that you buy on you turn and which have to be added to an opponents On Deck card.

Just a little bit of "take that" that could hamper a leader, and spoil a nice two-advancement card.

-1VP cards, cursed lands, or a "when you play this card you MUST immediate push on with the next card".


To add negative cards is the only way can anyone possibly think to add interaction?? If I like and appreciate something about this game is that there are no attacks. I prefer a game with no interaction than a game with negative interaction. Does positive or neutral interaction not exist??
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Stu Holttum wrote:
An easy way to add some interaction without major changes to the core game, would be an expansion with some negative cards in, that you buy on you turn and which have to be added to an opponents On Deck card.

Just a little bit of "take that" that could hamper a leader, and spoil a nice two-advancement card.

-1VP cards, cursed lands, or a "when you play this card you MUST immediate push on with the next card".


Wow, I would actually hate that.
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Stuart Holttum
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salva wrote:


To add negative cards is the only way can anyone possibly think to add interaction?? If I like and appreciate something about this game is that there are no attacks. I prefer a game with no interaction than a game with negative interaction. Does positive or neutral interaction not exist??


Of course they do - though given that the game is a competitive one, positive interaction would seem a little pointless (no pun intended)? I'm curious as to how you would envisage positive interactions working without changing the competitive aspect of the game?

If the game were cooperative, then positive interactions make sense. If I can help player B which in turn helps the team, then that is a worthwhile action. But I feel it would require more changes to the core rule set to make it cooperative, unless a race against time mechanic was added.
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Torn
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One way for neutral interaction is "I split you choose", for example:a card power could be "Select two cards with same cost. Right hand opponent selects one of those which you may buy for one less cost."

Another idea would be a mechanic like "When this card is in your field if an opponent buys a level three card then revert your energy token (the big blue one) back to its charged side."

Another idea: "When the energy of this card is used receive a good bonus but provide a small bonus to your opponents."

On a general note I would welcome cards that counter the race strategy a bit and favor a bit longer games. This way you need to keep an eye on how many of those cards are out and adjust your strategy accordingly.
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There's a shape called "The Golden Rectangle". Have you heard of it?
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It refers to a rectangle that's approximately contstructed in the ratio of 9 to 16. The golden rectangle has several characteristics. Let's say I create a square within this shape. Then, this smaller rectangle that I just created will also be a
badge
golden rectangle. I make another square within that and the leftover is another golden rectangle. And I make a few more, and when I connect all the central points of these shapes it creates a spiral that continues forever. This is the "Golden Spin".
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Stu Holttum wrote:
Of course they do - though given that the game is a competitive one, positive interaction would seem a little pointless (no pun intended)? I'm curious as to how you would envisage positive interactions working without changing the competitive aspect of the game?


There are dozens of games built around helping other people but helping yourself more in the process. The entire 18xx genre, role selection games (Race for the Galaxy / Puerto Rico), Panamax where you position your boats and cargo to get other people to help you, Caylus / Le Havre where opponents can pay you to use your things, several Dominion cards, Lewis & Clark where you benefit from the symbols on your opponents' cards, and many more.

Followed by the entire host of games where your actions affect your opponents but do not specifically target one player as in your suggestion. Too many examples to list -- worker placement, card drafting, attacks in Dominion, etc.
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Stuart Holttum
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golden_cow2 wrote:
There are dozens of games built around helping other people but helping yourself more in the process..... Followed by the entire host of games where your actions affect your opponents but do not specifically target one player as in your suggestion. Too many examples to list -- worker placement, card drafting, attacks in Dominion, etc.


So in this game, what positive interactions would you add, without too dramatically altering the core rules?
 
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Clinton Rice
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Stu Holttum wrote:
golden_cow2 wrote:
There are dozens of games built around helping other people but helping yourself more in the process..... Followed by the entire host of games where your actions affect your opponents but do not specifically target one player as in your suggestion. Too many examples to list -- worker placement, card drafting, attacks in Dominion, etc.


So in this game, what positive interactions would you add, without too dramatically altering the core rules?


I wouldn't. The game is very enjoyable as is. The game it reminds me of most is Splendor, also a great game enjoyed by many, though it has no more interaction than Mystic Vale does.

If you want interaction in Vale, look at the ad in the rulebook. Edge of Darkness is another game using the same Card-Crafting System as Mystic Vale but will have player interaction and combat. Mystic Vale is designed to ease players into this system before the more complicated rules system in EoD comes out..

But Mystic Vale works fine as it is. Trying to add interaction to it would be like adding dice to Scrabble.
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Peter S.
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IMO, the only real "shortcoming" of Mystic Vale was a lack of variety in the cards. If it keeps you from always seeing the same cards and makes it more common that you have a tough choice between different things to buy, then it's likely just what the game needs.
 
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Xelto G
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KoalaXav wrote:
If you want interaction in Vale, look at the ad in the rulebook. Edge of Darkness is another game using the same Card-Crafting System as Mystic Vale but will have player interaction and combat. Mystic Vale is designed to ease players into this system before the more complicated rules system in EoD comes out..

There are no guarantees that EoD will be more complex, just that it will have attacks. The lack of attack cards is a bonus to some people, so there will be people who prefer Mystic Vale to SoD (or any game with some variation on combat).
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Holly Greenwoodtree

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One card they should definitely create is the ability to either discard an advancement available, or to wipe/reset an entire row of advancements, forcing new cards out.
After playing this nearly 2 dozen times, we've found there are some cards that no one ever uses. And they just sit and take up space. There are also some players who dont WANT someone else to get the card they cant afford. This would be a little player interaction that wasnt outright negative, but could bring a little challenge, similar to the joker chip in Splendor.
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greenwoodtree wrote:
One card they should definitely create is the ability to either discard an advancement available, or to wipe/reset an entire row of advancements, forcing new cards out.
After playing this nearly 2 dozen times, we've found there are some cards that no one ever uses. And they just sit and take up space. There are also some players who dont WANT someone else to get the card they cant afford. This would be a little player interaction that wasnt outright negative, but could bring a little challenge, similar to the joker chip in Splendor.


It would be interesting, but I find this pretty annoying when it happens in Ascension. I don't know that I'd like it. I sure didn't feel the need for such a mechanism in Mystic Vale, whereas it was welcome in Ascension. Maybe because I haven't played enough games. Or maybe because nothing feels really broken in Mystic Vale, the way it does in other deckbuilders.
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Mike Beiter
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Personally, I would love "negative cards". I am not a big fan of helping foes a little and personally gaining more.
I would rather buy enhancements that go into my foes deck that weakens them or a card that adds +1 spoil to the opponents next turn.
A card that depletes an opponents charged mana token to give you a bonus.
A card that if it is in your field, counters an ability on an opponemrs card during their turn.
To me, the more you can do to directly hinder your opponents, the better!
 
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MajaiofDreams wrote:
Personally, I would love "negative cards". I am not a big fan of helping foes a little and personally gaining more.
I would rather buy enhancements that go into my foes deck that weakens them or a card that adds +1 spoil to the opponents next turn.
A card that depletes an opponents charged mana token to give you a bonus.
A card that if it is in your field, counters an ability on an opponemrs card during their turn.
To me, the more you can do to directly hinder your opponents, the better!


I don't like this at all. Think about the premise of the game. Four orders of druids working to cleanse their lands of an evil blight. While I can understand the different orders disagreeing with each other's methods, and trying to show their superiority, why would they want to use the mana generated by healthy land to poison the land of their rivals? Given the story, I think any druid that would serve to spread the blight out of sheer spite should instantly lose the game, and face the wrath of their order.
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KoalaXav wrote:
MajaiofDreams wrote:
Personally, I would love "negative cards". I am not a big fan of helping foes a little and personally gaining more.
I would rather buy enhancements that go into my foes deck that weakens them or a card that adds +1 spoil to the opponents next turn.
A card that depletes an opponents charged mana token to give you a bonus.
A card that if it is in your field, counters an ability on an opponemrs card during their turn.
To me, the more you can do to directly hinder your opponents, the better!


I don't like this at all. Think about the premise of the game. Four orders of druids working to cleanse their lands of an evil blight. While I can understand the different orders disagreeing with each other's methods, and trying to show their superiority, why would they want to use the mana generated by healthy land to poison the land of their rivals? Given the story, I think any druid that would serve to spread the blight out of sheer spite should instantly lose the game, and face the wrath of their order.


My thoughts exactly.
 
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Stuart Holttum
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KoalaXav wrote:
Think about the premise of the game. Four orders of druids working to cleanse their lands of an evil blight. While I can understand the different orders disagreeing with each other's methods, and trying to show their superiority, why would they want to use the mana generated by healthy land to poison the land of their rivals?.


Trouble is, it's a tricky life being a Druid. Save "the land", sure....but do you kill the potato-weevils to save the potatoes, or let the potatoes die to save the weevils? Wolves eat rabbits, who eat carrots....who do you champion? Do you just "let nature take its course"? If so, how can you label a "blight" as "evil"? Unbalanced, perhaps, but where is the line drawn?

As such, I can absolutely see differing Druid factions doing things to their rivals....because their rival factions simply don't understand where the lines of balance should be drawn!
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Clinton Rice
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Stu Holttum wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
Think about the premise of the game. Four orders of druids working to cleanse their lands of an evil blight. While I can understand the different orders disagreeing with each other's methods, and trying to show their superiority, why would they want to use the mana generated by healthy land to poison the land of their rivals?.


Trouble is, it's a tricky life being a Druid. Save "the land", sure....but do you kill the potato-weevils to save the potatoes, or let the potatoes die to save the weevils? Wolves eat rabbits, who eat carrots....who do you champion? Do you just "let nature take its course"? If so, how can you label a "blight" as "evil"? Unbalanced, perhaps, but where is the line drawn?

As such, I can absolutely see differing Druid factions doing things to their rivals....because their rival factions simply don't understand where the lines of balance should be drawn!


A magical blight caused by a curse that warps and perverts the land and it's denizens is evil, no philosophical debate needed.

But your kill the potato weevils to save the potatoes analogy is apt. This is represented by beneficial enhancements with spoil symbols and the push your luck element, both of which increase the chance of spoiling. But that is very different from outright sabotage.

But this shouldn't be an issue. I don't feel a need to attack others when I play Splendor or burn rival villages in Catan. Mystic Vale plays fine as it is. If the lack of interaction isn't to your taste, play Magic the Gathering. Don't try and change a good game to suit your whims.
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KoalaXav wrote:
A magical blight caused by a curse that warps and perverts the land and it's denizens is evil, no philosophical debate needed.


No? I think you'll find that defining "evil" is a little more complex than that. Probably not the right forum for that though.

KoalaXav wrote:
. If the lack of interaction isn't to your taste, play Magic the Gathering. Don't try and change a good game to suit your whims.


If interaction isn't to your taste, don't play that expansion (if it appears). Why prevent others from enhancing their game experience to suits your whims? If such an expansion appears, and you don't like it, I'm not going to force you to play it. But such an expansion would make this game a more enjoyable experience for me - why would you wish to prevent that?

Or am I the curse that would blight and pervert your game?

 
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Stu Holttum wrote:

No? I think you'll find that defining "evil" is a little more complex than that. Probably not the right forum for that though.


I could not disagree with you more. If you fail to understand why a magical curse that is warping nature and spoiling the land would be the complete bane of druids who serve nature, with no room for debate, I can't help you. Did you also root for the Nothing in Neverending Story?

Stu Holttum wrote:

If interaction isn't to your taste, don't play that expansion (if it appears). Why prevent others from enhancing their game experience to suits your whims? If such an expansion appears, and you don't like it, I'm not going to force you to play it. But such an expansion would make this game a more enjoyable experience for me - why would you wish to prevent that?

Or am I the curse that would blight and pervert your game?


I like interaction just fine...in games where it belongs. This is not one of them and the expansion is not adding any. There is no reason to believe it would as that would not expand on the game but completely change it on a core level. We have seen the preview cards. There is no hint of interaction. I like Mystic Vale for what it is. As do many others. And for those who don't, I support your right to not like it. But I do not support your desire to try to "fix" a game that does not need fixing.

If AEG does decide to add interaction in an expansion, I will weigh it on its merits. But championing a hypothetical expansion to add what you, feel is lacking but most do not is bordering on the ridiculous side. And if you have so much trouble grasping the theme of the game, the inherent beauty of the game, and the core principle of the game, then yes. I do believe you are a blight on what is good and beautiful in Mystic Vale.
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Stuart Holttum
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KoalaXav wrote:
Stu Holttum wrote:

No? I think you'll find that defining "evil" is a little more complex than that.


I could not disagree with you more. If you fail to understand why a magical curse that is warping nature and spoiling the land would be the complete bane of druids who serve nature, with no room for debate, I can't help you.


I fully understand the part in italics, and agree with you. But what has that got to do with defining evil? It sounds like you are using a simple definition there as being "things Druids don't like", in which case I could just as simply say that evil is "things the generator of the curse does not like".
 
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Stuart Holttum
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KoalaXav wrote:
I like Mystic Vale for what it is. As do many others. And for those who don't, I support your right to not like it. But I do not support your desire to try to "fix" a game that does not need fixing.

If AEG does decide to add interaction in an expansion, I will weigh it on its merits. But championing a hypothetical expansion to add what you, feel is lacking but most do not is bordering on the ridiculous side.


What attracts me to the game is the mechanism, which of course has absolutely nothing to do with the theme. The "add slides to core cards" mechanism could have been a game about terraforming planets, building giant robot warriors, building a Wild West village, or - it has to be said - taking on the role of an mighty wizard doing his best to corrupt and curse the land of the princess that spurned him. The mechanism is irrelevant to the theme....and, personally, I feel that the mechanism would be enhanced with increased interaction between players.

If AEG produce an expansion in future that adds interaction I would be delighted - it would enhance my enjoyment of this game. But equally I would be happy to buy a new game using the same mechanism, which has those aspects of "take that" interaction. That would of course be a "win-win" for both of us, and would thus probably be the best option. But with no sign of a new game, and with AEG happy to produce expansions, a future interactive expansion seems more likely, and so I don't see anything inherently ridiculous in saying "ya know what, I'd like an expansion like this".


KoalaXav wrote:
And if you have so much trouble grasping the theme of the game, the inherent beauty of the game, and the core principle of the game, then yes. I do believe you are a blight on what is good and beautiful in Mystic Vale.


Oh, I grasp them. But I feel that the mechanism has son much more potential, it would be a shame not to develop it for the sake of an (essentially) arbitrary theme and produce an expansion that you can of course play, or ignore, at your discretion.

Such an expansion would increase my pleasure, with no detriment to yourself....and I suspect that the Druids of the Vale would be right behind anything that has those qualities - perhaps I understand the qualities of the Vale more than you?
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Clinton Rice
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But there IS a sign of a more interactive game using the same mechanism. It's called Edge of Darkness and the ad is in the Mystic Vale rulebook. EoD sounds like it will be exactly what you want so why try to change Vale?
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