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Dungeon Saga: Dwarf King's Quest» Forums » News

Subject: Star Saga/Space Saga rss

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Stuart Kerrigan
England
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Hi all, I played this at Mantic's Open Day today, and I don't think they'll be too bothered if I let slip there will be a Kickstarter for a space version of Dungeon Saga soon (end of September supposedly). It'll follow a similar format to DS, but with custom dice. There'll be a Starfarer's Companion or some such.

They also said they'll review what's next for good ol' Dungeon Saga once all its KS expansions are at retail, but noted that DS is their best selling game (although Walking Dead might sell more).
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Brad P
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They have already discussed it in about that much detail in other places, Gencon, kickstarter updates, mantic facebook. After the shitfest they had in delivering on the promises of the Dungeon Saga kickstarter they better bring their A game. Both of their last two kickstarters clearly under performed what they were expecting.
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Michael Russell
United States
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I backed Dungeon Saga. Learned my lesson. Will not be backing this.
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Hugh G. Rection
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skerrigan wrote:
There'll be a Starfarer's Companion or some such.


So there will be a lot of promised content, and then months later, "Oh, that graphic and text posted multiple times during the campaign was a mistake. Oopsie."?
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Finland
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It would probably make the game a favor to design it only to use "Starfarer's Companion". Then those rules should (hopefully) work without major issues. All in all, it should be more feature rich than Dungeon Saga in it's current form with Adventure Companion.

Want to have:
* Travel events (between solar system anything can happen before getting to location - can be similar to Descent),
* Better scaling - I don't wish to use fixed number of heroes. Game should be playable using only 2 heroes (or perhaps even solo with 1).
* Random loot instead of fixed treasures.
* Upgrading weapons and building attachements from parts (laser rifle, attach sniper scope/grenade launcher or evolve into plasma rifle or something).
* Buying and selling items.
* Overlord player should be able to develoop his experience. Be it as simple as buying new cards and customize his Overlord Deck (similar to Descent)

Want to keep concepts of:
* Custom heroes
* Discover as you go (but a HeroQuest kind of board would be nice as a stretchgoal for easy, tile free setup - an additional campaign using this).
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Sebastian Grawan
Germany
Lehrte
Niedersachsen
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See the list of contents on page XXX...
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Waggly Bean
United Kingdom
Walsall
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Yeah count me out, however good it might look...
 
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David Villa
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I will wait for retail and evaluate the final product. The Dungeon Saga kickstarter was a horrendous event of failed promises and poor execution. I won't go through that again.
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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I really hope we can do without gimmicky boxes this time around.

Also not getting official boxes for my kickstarter expansions wasn't very cool either. Neither was getting the chance to buy said boxes for more than half the cost of the expansions themselves.

And hopefully this is more of a rules committee developed ruleset, rather than just Thorton doing what he wanted and then half assing the bits he wasn't interested in.

Then maybe I'll check it out.
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Stuart Kerrigan
England
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It's being made in house, rather than by Jake. Basically special dice, no armour scores - just 3 possible values, nothing, success and major success.

As to the guys at Mantic, the three I met were super-nice guys, albeit perhaps not the most organised having organised the event with 2 days notice. More gamers than administrators I suppose...
 
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Brad P
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That is less than encouraging. For sci fi you need more details in armor and such not less. Their in house team has not set much of fire with their warpath or firefight rules so we will have to see. I will not be backing as I already have enough games and Mantic does not deliver on their promises.
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Stuart Kerrigan
England
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Instead of Armour you have a Defence pool modified by your armour etc. So you can still get better at standing still and taking damage.
 
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Rick Vinyard
United States
Las Cruces
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I'm excited about the project, but I already have a ton of Galaxy Defenders stuff, Space Crusade + Advanced Space Crusade, Doom: The Boardgame, DOOM: The Board Game. Gears of War: The Board Game. plus a ton of Star Wars: Imperial Assault.

As much as I like what they did with Dungeon Saga, they'll have to convince me that what they have is really differentiating from the list I already have.
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Brad P
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Imperial Assault is probably the standard for this stuff right now. They do a lot with custom dice for both attack and defend but I think it is a more complicated game than Dungeon Saga.

Comparing Dungeon Saga to Imperial Assault Core Boxes, Imperial Assault wins most catagories. The Dungeon Saga miniatures are better on average and has the decor stuff but Imperial Assault has way more game.
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Allan Rodda
Australia
Adelaide
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I'd be lying if I said I wasn't interested, but they are going to have to make some major improvements to the Dungeon Sage rules in order to drag me back in. Even then I doubt I'll gamble with more than the cost of the base game.

Having said that I'm curious to see what changes have been made to the 'Starventurer's Companion'. I think it was mentioned before but this really needs to be the basis of the game, with the 'core game' being a pared down version of the advanced rules, rather than the advanced rules being an afterthought grudgingly thrown together by a disinterested game designer (some actual playtesting of the rules would be nice too).

I'm sure everyone has one of these, but here's a short list of what I think needs to be fixed for 'Space Saga':

- The basic rules and advanced rules need to feel integrated, not tacked on.
- Fixed character advancement (there were some weird issues in DS relating to ranged attacks).
- Fixed balance between the core game and the advanced game. I should be able to use custom characters in the core game without balance issues.
- Drop the 'timer' mechanic. It's a lazy way to balance the game and ruins the feeling of exploration.
- Give us some options for character advancement in the core game.
- Tighten up the random dungeon rules.
- Fix the co-op rules. Seriously, the ones in DS are a bit of a mess and could do with some real cleaning up.
- Allow more than one monster type in a single dungeon.
- Write the adventures/rules so that they don't rely on a specific type of character with a specific type of ability to be present in every single adventure (ie, no 'break ward' spell requirement).
- Scale the game to allow the use of less heroes. If I'm playing solo I don't necessarily want to manage 4 Heroes as well as all the monsters.
- Get rid of the 'all but one piece of treasure mysteriously disappears' mechanic. Seriously, it's just dumb. Make it worth money, make training cost money, make money be some of the treasure I can find during a game. How is it that Hero Quest got this right 25 years ago but newer dungeon crawls still struggle with it.
- Give us boxes for our expansion addons, don't cheap out. Not stupid gimmick boxes either, just a box with a lid. In fact this deserves its own point.
- No gimmick boxes. Those stupid book boxes felt cheap and looked ugly despite likely sucking more resources from other parts of the project than just going with regular boxes would have.
- If you can't, for whatever reason, give us a box for each expansion, at least give us enough to actually store all of the items in the kickstarter without having to purchase extras.
- PLAYTEST THE DAMN GAME. Half the problems with the Adventurer's Companion could have been fixed had anyone bothered to try and play an actual game using all the rules.
- Deliver what was promised. No one actually believes that the wrong graphic was used and that Mantic never intended to deliver what they said you would. They messed up, rushed the game and released a sub-par product. They've been improving (slowly) so lets hope they don't screw it up now.

There's probably things I'm forgetting, I'd need to go back over the old kickstarter to really refresh my memory, but these are the issues that really kept me from liking the game. There's also plenty of old threads that list all the issues with the original game, in fact eriochrome's FAQ would be an excellent place to start.

Having said all that though, Modiphius are supposedly launching their "Mutant Chronicles: Siege of the Citadel" kickstarter this Thursday, so there might be a better alternative than hoping Mantic manage to pull their finger out.
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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I think you hit the nail on the head right there- the game should be developed with the advanced rules in mind first, and the base game is a paired down version of that.
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Brad P
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Dungeon Saga as formulated does not have any Advanced Rules. It has some weakly done character generation and off quest rules but nothing "Advanced" that goes in and changes the basic game play at all.
 
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JD Snider
Canada
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I think the Dungeon Saga base game is quite fun, but the Advanced Rules were unfortunately pretty poorly done. They looked great on the surface, but didn't hold up terribly well. For example, the AI system Jake made worked for a couple of the initial scenarios in the base game (when the maps were small) but began to come apart if things got too complicated. And the levelling was poorly thought out and could quickly lead to overpowered characters. I won't even talk about random dungeon generation......

Anyway, for me this means I'll never be backing another Kickstarter by Mantic. I enjoyed the game I got from them, but it wasn't what was promised. And that's the deal breaker. If this game turns out to be good I may pick it up at retail, but I'll never again trust them with my money up front.
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Allan Rodda
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eriochrome wrote:
Dungeon Saga as formulated does not have any Advanced Rules. It has some weakly done character generation and off quest rules but nothing "Advanced" that goes in and changes the basic game play at all.


I guess I mean that the AI, random dungeon, and character advancement rules shouldn't feel like they are tacked on or unbalanced, and they should be usable with the campaign in the base game without requiring weird 'half levels' or homebrew fixes.

I guess Mantic could just strip the AI and random dungeon stuff out, but then it's a no sale for me. I'm already pretty unimpressed with both their efforts so far and the fluff for Warpath, which this new game will undoubtedly use.
 
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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Thing is, Mantic can make good AI rules when they want to.

I was happy with my Martian AI deck. Then again, Mars Attacks played pretty simply as well and was more of a skirmish game as opposed to a tactical adventure board game.

The AI zombie deck for Deadzone wasn't too bad from what I remember. Then again, maybe I wasn't using it correctly...
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Brad P
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zethnar wrote:
eriochrome wrote:
Dungeon Saga as formulated does not have any Advanced Rules. It has some weakly done character generation and off quest rules but nothing "Advanced" that goes in and changes the basic game play at all.


I guess I mean that the AI, random dungeon, and character advancement rules shouldn't feel like they are tacked on or unbalanced, and they should be usable with the campaign in the base game without requiring weird 'half levels' or homebrew fixes.

I guess Mantic could just strip the AI and random dungeon stuff out, but then it's a no sale for me. I'm already pretty unimpressed with both their efforts so far and the fluff for Warpath, which this new game will undoubtedly use.


I have never gotten any real indication out of Mantic that they think there is anything still wrong with the rules in the AC. We are almost a year out now from when it was on the boat and they have essentially done nothing to improve the materials, no real FAQs, examples, pre made bosses. Jack shit. We finally got something about the line of sight stuff out of Jake back in May and other than some terminology differences you were better off reading what I wrote months before.

If you follow the bgg, mantic forum, and facebook groups like I do (way to much I admit) you see the same damn questions asked over and over. Perhaps something might have happened if the shipping/ordering shit storm had not occurred as that took a lot of focus off the quality of the content and back to just getting people stuff. I have Space Hulk and Imperial Assault so I am good for Corridor based Sci Fi games. They would have to knock my socks off really showing me stuff that is not miniatures to get my money. I backed DS on the faith that they would deliver what they said they were going to in terms of rules and missions and was sorely let down. No Faith anymore. They need to show stuff which I am guess they are not really cabable of after seeing Firefight and Warpath.
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Allan Rodda
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You're right, but they'd be foolish to admit there were problems with the AC while they are still selling it. Like their other games its much more likely they're going to quietly fix it with a second kickstarter in a couple of years (and try to force anyone who just wants a fixed copy of the game to rebuy the core boxes). That could also be what this is, a quiet attempt to fix the rules without officially admitting that there are issues with them.

As I said, there is a long list of things they'd need to address before I'd consider giving them money again. Given the performance of their last two kickstarters I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who feels that way either.
 
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Brad P
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Deadzone 2 got a pretty comprehensive FAQ document essentially a month after it went out. About half the issues could be cleared up there. Some bonus Boss cards based on KOW character models (if not actually the character themselves) are essentially easy to do as Blog posts and such.

Some Examples of IO would be helpful to people but those might just highlight how weak the system is. Uncharted is another matter as is all the missing Overlord stuff.
 
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David Villa
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Mantic now has a history of poor product fulfillment and significant issues with product delivered and quality issues. My trust in them is marginal and I will not participate in their Kickstarters, gambling on a product that has not yet been produced.

They may still get my money if they deliver a quality product, but I will wait for retail to see what the end result is and then decide if I will purchase it.
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
United States
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Mantic's most recent Kickstarter was a huge downshift in funding level from prior projects which is interesting since it was a reboot of a project that originally sold for $740k as an unknown. 1,684 backers pledged $183,853 for second edition which was a loss of half a million dollars and about a thousand backers.

I think that there is a definite backlash from this project (Dungeon Saga). Not irreparable but a definite backlash.
 
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