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Vast: The Crystal Caverns» Forums » Sessions

Subject: First play, questions and impressions. rss

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Cameron Blackwood
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First off i *adore* the asymmetric nature of this game! Heaps of props for taking the leap to make such a game! Each character is such a fantaticly different game. I cant wait to play with a huge variety of characters and see what a random mess that turns into. Hahaha! Cant wait!

The knight played pretty well. We (my partner and i trying a first game as a two brained solo game ;) were a little worried that we might not get the mission done before the cave collapse but the knight's abilities ramped up very quickly and it was a quiet jaunt for the exit with speed 10 two turns after the cave started collapsing. ;-)

Next we played a dragon vs goblin game and that was very interesting too. Both sides played very very differently to the knight and each other which was very impressive. The dragon was pretty straight forward but i did end up with a few goblin questions (most of which i think ive answered but would like to confirm).

* The goblin tribe special action counts as the 'one action' [yes] so you cant

* if the goblin player uses 'cave in' to remove a dark tile next to a revealed tile, i assume it is replaced immediately? [i guess so, you always need a dark tile if the space is accessible from the light tile, although counter to that during the cave collapse you can have light tiles not leading anywhere] [found the answer to this in the 'cave' player chart, answer is 'place new dark tiles']

* if you 'reveal' to place a tribe on a tile with a treasure, can you plunder it as you've ended your turn revealed on it? [seems 'no' is the popular answer here]

* goblin losses while attacking the ash-dragon dont 'feed' the dragon, do they? [i assume not]

* can the goblin 'reveal' tiles? I cant see a way for them to do that (which is why they get to place treasure instead).

I had a tough time as the goblins. The player with the dragon scaled up pretty well and i didnt keep the goblins rage up and held back to try and build up when i think i should have been swamping the dragon early.

After the treasure and event deck for the knight the totally different way of treating the tiles was fantastic! ;-)


Dragon questions:

* dragons scorch 'surrounding' is the 4 directions or all 8 tiles?


Knight observations:

* I really feel this game needs move and encounter tokens to keep track of the knight's points left because you can add moves and encounters during your move which just hurts my head ;-) I'll use counters or dice next time. ;-)


Im about to go read up on the cave player so i can try a 4 player game tomorrow and Im really looking forward to it.

---------

Additional questions from more reading

* Knight's 'ancient map' casts are 3 cube per use or 1/2/3 with a limit of 3 uses or 1 cube for 3 uses? [something i read on a card i cant find now suggests that it isnt 3 cubes per use]

* How are the vault tiles used? Only when the thief plays? Always but only the thief can access them? That might change the number of tiles for normal play. The rules for the cave player say 45 cave tiles (which is 15 ambush + 15 events + 9 crystal + 6 treasure = 45 so that doesnt include the vault tiles










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Kyle
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dr_von_korg wrote:
* The goblin tribe special action counts as the 'one action' [yes] so you cant
Reveal and the special actions are separate actions, and only one can be performed each turn.

Quote:
* if the goblin player uses 'cave in' to remove a dark tile next to a revealed tile, i assume it is replaced immediately? [i guess so, you always need a dark tile if the space is accessible from the light tile, although counter to that during the cave collapse you can have light tiles not leading anywhere]
Prior to the collapse, open edges are always filled in immediately so usually the caved-in tiles will be replaced with dark tiles.

If the collapse has begun, the edges remain open.

Quote:
* if you 'reveal' to place a tribe on a tile with a treasure, can you plunder it as you've ended your turn revealed on it? [seems 'no' is the popular answer here]
Revealing and Plundering are separate actions, so you can only do one per turn. You'll have to wait until the next turn to collect the treasure.

Quote:
* goblin losses while attacking the ash-dragon dont 'feed' the dragon, do they? [i assume not]
Correct. The dragon only eats Goblins when using Claw, Scratch, or Hiss.

Quote:
* can the goblin 'reveal' tiles? I cant see a way for them to do that (which is why they get to place treasure instead).
In some variants they get the Flare card which can be used to reveal tiles, but otherwise they cannot.

Quote:
Dragon questions:

* dragons scorch 'surrounding' is the 4 directions or all 8 tiles?
Scorch reveals all 8 surrounding tiles.

Quote:
Knight observations:

* I really feel this game needs move and encounter tokens to keep track of the knight's points left because you can add moves and encounters during your move which just hurts my head ;-) I'll use counters or dice next time. ;-)
It's easier to keep track of them if you add cubes to movement and perception only as you need it, rather than setting most of the stats ahead of time. Then you really only need to keep track of the next one or two at a time.
 
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Cameron Blackwood
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Thanks for the reply. I think we did all of that right. As the goblin I found it quite hard to keep my rage up and the 'reveal'+'plunder' taking two turns (and you cant do the move+plunder because the move comes first) really kills ;-)

So dragon's scorch reveals any of the 8 surrounding tiles but does not *place* any into unfilled spaces?

And just as you were hitting reply, i also asked a couple more questions ;-)
 
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Kyle
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dr_von_korg wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think we did all of that right. As the goblin I found it quite hard to keep my rage up and the 'reveal'+'plunder' taking two turns (and you cant do the move+plunder because the move comes first) really kills ;-)
Remember that you gain a rage each time the dragon or knight attack, so sometimes it can be worth sacrificing a tribe to one of them to give you more options with the remaining tribes.

Quote:
So dragon's scorch reveals any of the 8 surrounding tiles but does not *place* any into unfilled spaces?
Correct. It only hits tiles that were on the map when you first used the ability, not any new dark tiles placed to fill open edges.

Quote:
Additional questions from more reading

* Knight's 'ancient map' casts are 3 cube per use or 1/2/3 with a limit of 3 uses or 1 cube for 3 uses? [something i read on a card i cant find now suggests that it isnt 3 cubes per use]
It's one cube per use, and you can use it up to three times in one turn.

If you're playing a variant without a Goblins player and are using the highest difficulty for ambushes (Goblin Infestation), the Golem will increase the cost of using the map if it hits you.

Quote:
* How are the vault tiles used? Only when the thief plays? Always but only the thief can access them? That might change the number of tiles for normal play. The rules for the cave player say 45 cave tiles (which is 15 ambush + 15 events + 9 crystal + 6 treasure = 45 so that doesnt include the vault tiles
Vault tiles are used only when there's a Thief player in the game. Only the Thief can interact with them.

The 45 tiles number was a misprint that didn't include the vaults or the entrance tile.
 
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Cameron Blackwood
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Thanks so much for the answers. They are really helping me get ontop of this game. For some reason the rules have let me with lots of questions on these edge cases.

Wow! That was what i was forgetting to do: gain rage when attacked! Wow! That made a difference!

We played a 3 player game (dragon, knight, goblin) and it really worked quite well. The knight was hammered pretty early and I (as the goblin) was worried that the dragon would get too far ahead so i backed off for a couple of turns and that let him leap ahead in grit and really hammer the dragon.

Still loving the game and the variety of very different sides. The dragon seems to level pretty steadily, the goblins very quickly get to their strength but have the delay of needing to reveal back onto the map and once again the knight seems to start slow and stay low until they seem to explode at the end. ;-)

Still loving the game! Great fun!

It did raise another question though.

* The knight had bombs and the javelin but can you use both of those to attack the dragon in one encounter or turn? The text on the knight reference says you can only attack 1/turn with a bomb, but the javelin says 'without using a bomb' which seems to suggest you can attack twice?

Can she just attack twice? Does she need to spend another encounter for the second attack? Or move off and back on the tile and an encounter?
 
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Patrick Leder
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The Javelin says specifically it can't be used the same turn as the Bomb.
 
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Cameron Blackwood
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Duh! How did i miss that?! *shakes head*

Thanks for the reply.

So the knight can only attack *once* per turn (regardless of moves or encounters). That would have changed our game a bit.
 
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Graham Gass
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dr_von_korg wrote:
Duh! How did i miss that?! *shakes head*

Thanks for the reply.

So the knight can only attack *once* per turn (regardless of moves or encounters). That would have changed our game a bit.


Only before the collapse/before the dragon has surfaced. After that, she doesn't need to bomb so she can do as many attacks as she has encounters.
 
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Karl
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Flame112 wrote:

Only before the collapse/before the dragon has surfaced. After that, she doesn't need to bomb so she can do as many attacks as she has encounters.


IIRC correct she still can only attack once per turn as long as the Dragon hasn't surfaced. She just doesn't need a bomb to do so (so it only uses 1 cube instead of 2).
 
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Cameron Blackwood
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Ok, that makes a little more sense, but does the knight need to move off the square with the dragon and back on again to attack or just spend another encounter to attack again (I guess the rules seems to suggest just spend an encounter to encounter the tile again).

We played again last night (knight vs dragon vs cage) and it was a lot of fun still. It did raise yet another question though:

* ambush: what happens if the goblins dont have enough strength to 'win' vs the knight? Seems obvious that no damage happens, but can the goblin player put a hidden tribe on the board still? Im guessing no, although technically one could read the text as suggesting the gobin didnt move they just appear on the tile.




 
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Patrick Leder
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The Knight can just keep spending Encounters in the same space. Every monster I design from now on will also step off of the space like I believe was in David's original design.

The Hidden Tribe never travels to the board, it just attacks from hiding(the Goblin board). If the Tribe is too weak it can't attack and nothing happens.
 
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David Fenton
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GreenM wrote:
The Hidden Tribe never travels to the board, it just attacks from hiding(the Goblin board). If the Tribe is too weak it can't attack and nothing happens.

If you wanted to play that the Tribe appears on the tile (for sake of keeping track, though it's really unnecessary), remember that a Tribe cannot enter the Knight's space unless it's Strength is greater than the Knight's (in which case it must attack). So existing rules would prevent the Tribe from even appearing if it had insufficient strength.
 
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Cameron Blackwood
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Im still trying to get my head around the goblin force. They seem to me to start more strongly or at least are able to ramp up to full force very quickly vs other characters but they hit a cap on that power and getting them on the board seems to be the hard part. I guess that is why there are 3 mobs of them. ;-)
 
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David Fenton
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dr_von_korg wrote:
Im still trying to get my head around the goblin force. They seem to me to start more strongly or at least are able to ramp up to full force very quickly vs other characters but they hit a cap on that power and getting them on the board seems to be the hard part. I guess that is why there are 3 mobs of them. ;-)

A few tips that I've noticed. Unless saving a Tribe for Ambushes, get all your Tribes on the board. A Hidden Tribe can't do anything (other than appear or ambush). Having them on the board (even if they aren't strong or in position to attack), lets you use their Special Action or Plunder Treasures / Gems. It also lets you "sacrifice" weak Tribes to handle overpopulation without losing Rage. If you have a chance to attack the Knight/Dragon, do so. The entire point of the Goblins is to attack, so saving them doesn't very help much (and it's easier to attack the Knight early on since you need less Strength). Use the Goblin's explore ability to have one Tribe place tiles to allow a later Tribe to move further and attack (i.e. use teamwork). Keep Tribes spread out (especially when near the Dragon or when the Knight has incentive to attack), to prevent scattering multiple Tribes in a turn.
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Patrick Leder
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We played around with systems that let the Goblins get more powerful. David and I came up with this system of having a sheet that represents the Goblin's village. As they develop areas they would get passive bonuses. It ended up being a lot more overhead and without hidden information the Goblins got really boring fast.

And it felt like a lot to track but I don't know, I wonder if it was more or less.
 
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Peter Rabinowitz
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I appreciate how the Goblins have a different arc than the other players. You can get pretty strong very quickly. So you have to be aggressive early and then find a way to keep it up all game. This provides nice variety from ramping up via grit or sloth.
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