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BattleLore (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: 4 stands unit (1st ed) vs 3 stands unit (2nd ed) rss

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lolo paz
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hi ,
i love command and colors:ancient and i am interested in playing fantasy battles with the Borg's system.
but i've seen that all the units are 3 stands units,even infantry, unlike Ancients or the 1st edition of Battlelore where cavalry are 3 stands and infantry 4 stands.

what is the difference in gameplay with 3 stands and so many dice effect and units capacities? more bloody? faster battle? do your units are quickly wiped out after combat?

thank you.
(and sorry for my english)


 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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a bit more luckbased but not that much more bloody as units generally roll less dice compared to CC:A
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David Hubbard
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Melee attackers usually roll 3-4 dice, with a 1 in 3 chance per die of causing hits, minus any special abilities. It's not likely, but sometimes a unit will get wiped out in one attack. Counterattack are more frequent in Battlelore 2nd edition so it also sometimes works out that you attack someone and then get wiped out in the counterattack.

Overall, it all works out in the end. Note that the legendary units have 4-6 health, and there is one "regular" unit in an expansion that has 4 health/figures.
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Giulio
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Hi,
let me warn you: the number of figures in the base units is not really what makes BL2ed different from CC:A. The game plays in a very different way. And IMHO this is not due, as one might think, to the interaction of unit abilities and Lore cards, interaction that was already present in BL1st, a game much more similar to CCA in spirit, but to the fact that VPs are earned mainly by controlling specific locations rather than eliminating units. This makes units a much more disposable asset in BL2ed with respect to its cousins. If played a bit competitively, and probably you can't see it if playing with your 10 years old son, it becomes soon a race about amassing VPs in the shortest possible time. This is not to say that it is not enjoyable. It is. Especially the base game. But it is different.
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lolo paz
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thank you for your comments.

yes,i've read some critisism about the game being a race about occupying vp's locations to accumulate its.i think i like something more straightfoward and more brutal for fantasy battle like in the warhammer world.
maybe i should look for the 1st edition even if i like the idea of putting away colors and the introduction of attrition, and the hero face of the dice triggering special abilities...

i've read that some scenarii exist about just destroying units but does the 2nd edition system make this type of game interesting?
 
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Giulio
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Well I don't consider the "race" aspect a negative point of the game. Quite the contrary. The rules are consistently build around this idea. In BL2nd you have free initial placement of troops in your deployment area and also some control on the initial hand of cards. Which means that the phase of units re-deployment and hand management you typically do in CCA or BL1st to prepare for the assault, in BL2nd is already done at the beginning of the game. Players are brought straight into action. And the deployment phase is far from trivial, a very strategic part of the game that requires planning and anticipation of the opponent's plan. Thus, an interesting challenge.

Concerning BL1st, I like it a lot too. It's more traditional command&colors if you want. Some dislike the fantasy setting, which require you to accept that there are dwarfs in middle age Scottland and goblins between France and Spain... Personally, I find it original and fun!
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Scott Lewis
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g1ul10 wrote:
Well I don't consider the "race" aspect a negative point of the game. Quite the contrary.

Agreed. I think many (most?) of the criticism about this aspect probably comes from players of the first edition who didn't like this particular change.

I enjoyed 1E quite a bit, but the VP system meant that a lot of time I'd have several units in my army that I had no reason to move or get involved in the fight.
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Garrett
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Have you played the app version, BattleLore: Command? That game takes second edition and gives you deathmatches where the goal is to eliminate the other side. So yes, it's totally possible to use BattleLore 2E's units to just try to eliminate each others' armies. Those deathmatches are okay, but I don't find them as entertaining as the board game's VP system.

Having VP banner hexes that you need to control means that you know where the fight needs to happen. This gives you insight into how your opponent will maneuver his forces and, in my opinion, makes the game more tactical. I've never understood the complaint about sitting on a VP banner being boring. In my games, it's rare for a unit to stay on the banner for too long because that unit becomes a real target for my opponent.

The other thing that makes BattleLore 2E really fun is the scenario card system. Scenario cards give special rules for the game and also give your army alternative ways of scoring victory points. Sometimes this involves killing enemy units, but sometimes it requires certain positioning of your troops. And because each army brings its own scenario card, you have to think more about strategy. Even if you bring the same scenario in two games, your strategy may change completely, depending on the scenario your opponent brings. This is one benefit of having separate scenario cards rather than whole scenarios.

When you mix the hotly-contested VP hexes with the special scenario rules, you get all the fun of a chaotic and bloody battle but with more direction and purpose than a fight to the death. I've never played first edition, but I have trouble imagining that I would like it any better.
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lolo paz
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if the focus of winning point is to stand on VP's hexe, does the action essentially take place around those hexe?
 
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Scott Lewis
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phalazar wrote:
if the focus of winning point is to stand on VP's hexe, does the action essentially take place around those hexe?

Yes, typically those hexes tend to get a lot of action, but most scenarios also have alternate VP options as well, which will affect where the action happens.
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Jake Waltier
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phalazar wrote:
if the focus of winning point is to stand on VP's hexe, does the action essentially take place around those hexe?

Not in my experience. To remove your unit from a hex, they have to get their units in striking distance of the hex, and the battles can focus anywhere in between that both players end up wanting to fight.
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Garrett
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phalazar wrote:
if the focus of winning point is to stand on VP's hexe, does the action essentially take place around those hexe?


Yes and no. Ideally, yes, you want to position your troops to occupy and defend the VP hexes. In practice, those areas don't usually get swarmed by units. There are several reasons for this.

1) Directly related to your original question, having fewer figures in a unit does make them die faster. That means that the armies are getting thinned out throughout the game. I suppose that means that yes, action is taking place around the VP hex, but it usually doesn't get very crowded.

2) You do not have direct control over your army's movement because of the randomness of the command cards. You can choose to discard a command card to order a single unit, but since most command cards will let you order 2-4 units, you get to order more units by using the command cards you are dealt. But if your order cards primarily have you moving units in one section of the battelfield, you have to make a choice between ordering one unit to try to take a VP hex in the section you have no orders for, or using your other units to directly attack the enemy and hopefully weaken his forces.

3) Because the scenarios present alternative ways of gaining VPs, you may be trying to prevent your opponent from getting VPs through their scenario card rather than contesting the VP banners. For example, if your opponent can score a VP every time his ranged unit defeats one of your units, you may decide to focus on eliminating his ranged units.

Here's an anecdote from a recent game. I needed to occupy hill and forest hexes to gain extra VP. I had a few units in my right section holding those hexes. I had an Obscene on the left that wasn't doing me much good there anymore, so I wanted to move it to my right section, on my opponent's side of the board, to take his VP banner. I got the Obscene almost all the way to the right section before I ran out of command cards that let me order units in the center section. I could have spent two turns of moving only the Obscene in order to get it there, but I chose to use my commands to order my archers to harass the enemy troops instead. This allowed my opponent to intercept the Obscene and defeat it before it could attempt to take the VP hex. So while the VP hex was the goal of my movement, the actual combat took place in a different section of the battlefield.
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