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Fire in the Lake» Forums » Rules

Subject: NVA Ambush questions/bot rss

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Yannis Monoyios
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Hi there !

Am trying make an excel sheet that given the pieces on table each turn will calculate each faction's bot, and I am in need of some answers, on questions occur :

1) Is Ambush on LoC from adjacent LoC allowed ? (LoC to LoC Ambush ? LoC's are spaces after all)

2) PT-76 Event effect can trigger an NVA Bot Attack ?

3) BOT Ambush can not be with less the 4 NVA troops ?

Thanks in advance
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Yes to both.

Regards,
Oerjan
 
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Yannis Monoyios
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and something else :

BOT Ambush can not be with less the 4 NVA troops ?
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Troops can't Ambush at all, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Only Underground Guerrillas can Ambush.

Fewer than 4 NVA Troops can trigger an NVAbot Attack if they would gain NVA Control or remove a COIN Base or remove the last COIN piece from a space if they Attack.

It is also possible for NVAbot to select the Attack Op because a small group of Troops could do one of those three things, but end up not Attacking with that group because larger groups of Troops can remove more enemy pieces and therefore get higher priority.

Regards,
Oerjan
 
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Yannis Monoyios
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Oerjan wrote:
Troops can't Ambush at all, so I'm not sure what you mean here. Only Underground Guerrillas can Ambush.

Fewer than 4 NVA Troops can trigger an NVAbot Attack if they would gain NVA Control or remove a COIN Base or remove the last COIN piece from a space if they Attack.

It is also possible for NVAbot to select the Attack Op because a small group of Troops could do one of those three things, but end up not Attacking with that group because larger groups of Troops can remove more enemy pieces and therefore get higher priority.

Regards,
Oerjan


Ok thank you Oerjan

Am confused, does the BOT ASSAULT of guerrillas can come along with a smaller group (less than 4) of NVA troops ?

could we say that the Bot operations-activities couples are like the following :
1) 4+NVAtroops Attack with Ambush from LoCs
2) Guerrillas Attack with Ambush Guerrillas (in same region OR adjLOC)
3) less than4 NVA troops with Ambush from adjacent LoC
?

And something else, can be (by bot or player) ambush in the same region from two different LoC's ?
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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Lykofron wrote:
Ok thank you Oerjan

Am confused, does the BOT ASSAULT of guerrillas can come along with a smaller group (less than 4) of NVA troops ?

NVA never Assaults, because Assault is a COIN Operation. NVA Attacks.

When NVA Attacks, it can do so in one of three mutually exclusive ways in each Attack space:

1) Attack with NVA Troops, removing a guaranteed number of enemy pieces (exactly how many depends on the terrain, how many NVA Troops there are and any Capabilities in play). OR,

2) Attack with all NVA Guerrillas in the space, rolling a D6 to see if the Attack succeeds and removing up to 2 enemy pieces in case of success. OR,

3) Augment the Attack in this space with an Ambush SA, using only one Underground NVA Guerrilla and ensuring the removal of 1 enemy piece either from the Attack+Ambush space itself or (in case the Attack+Ambush space is a LoC) from an adjacent target space.

During a single Attack Operation NVA may choose a different option for each separate Attack space, but each Attack space may only use one of these three options.

Regardless of where the enemy pieces are removed from, the Attack space is always the one where the Attacking unit or units are located. If a Guerrilla uses an Attack+Ambush in a LoC to remove enemies from an adjacent target space, then the LoC is the Attack space since that's where the Guerrilla is located.

It is legal to Attack both in a City or Province and, in the same Attack Operation, Attack+Ambush with Guerrillas on adjacent LoCs to remove an additional piece or two from the same City or Province. In this situation you have two or three Attack spaces: the City or Province itself, plus the LoC or LoCs; and you have a single target space, i.e., the City or Province.

The bot does not use this option, because the instructions needed to make it do that were even longer and messier than the present ones. NVAbot uses a separate Attack space for each target space it selects.

Quote:
And something else, can be (by bot or player) ambush in the same region from two different LoC's ?

You can Ambush in two different LoCs to remove enemies from the same third space.

That's almost, but not exactly, the same thing as you asked; and the difference is important, because it affects how many Resources you have to pay for the Operation.

If you "ambush in the same region from two different LoCs", you're saying that the target region is the selected Attack+Ambush space; and since you pay for the Attack spaces you select, this means that you only pay 1 Resource.

The rules OTOH say that the two LoCs are the selected Attack+Ambush spaces, so you need to pay for each of them - a total of 2 Resources - even though you removed the enemy pieces from the same third space.

Regards,
Oerjan
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Yannis Monoyios
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Oerjan wrote:
Lykofron wrote:
Ok thank you Oerjan

Am confused, does the BOT ASSAULT of guerrillas can come along with a smaller group (less than 4) of NVA troops ?

NVA never Assaults, because Assault is a COIN Operation. NVA Attacks.

When NVA Attacks, it can do so in one of three mutually exclusive ways in each Attack space:

1) Attack with NVA Troops, removing a guaranteed number of enemy pieces (exactly how many depends on the terrain, how many NVA Troops there are and any Capabilities in play). OR,

2) Attack with all NVA Guerrillas in the space, rolling a D6 to see if the Attack succeeds and removing up to 2 enemy pieces in case of success. OR,

3) Augment the Attack in this space with an Ambush SA, using only one Underground NVA Guerrilla and ensuring the removal of 1 enemy piece either from the Attack+Ambush space itself or (in case the Attack+Ambush space is a LoC) from an adjacent target space.

During a single Attack Operation NVA may choose a different option for each separate Attack space, but each Attack space may only use one of these three options.

Regardless of where the enemy pieces are removed from, the Attack space is always the one where the Attacking unit or units are located. If a Guerrilla uses an Attack+Ambush in a LoC to remove enemies from an adjacent target space, then the LoC is the Attack space since that's where the Guerrilla is located.

It is legal to Attack both in a City or Province and, in the same Attack Operation, Attack+Ambush with Guerrillas on adjacent LoCs to remove an additional piece or two from the same City or Province. In this situation you have two or three Attack spaces: the City or Province itself, plus the LoC or LoCs; and you have a single target space, i.e., the City or Province.

The bot does not use this option, because the instructions needed to make it do that were even longer and messier than the present ones. NVAbot uses a separate Attack space for each target space it selects.

Quote:
And something else, can be (by bot or player) ambush in the same region from two different LoC's ?

You can Ambush in two different LoCs to remove enemies from the same third space.

That's almost, but not exactly, the same thing as you asked; and the difference is important, because it affects how many Resources you have to pay for the Operation.

If you "ambush in the same region from two different LoCs", you're saying that the target region is the selected Attack+Ambush space; and since you pay for the Attack spaces you select, this means that you only pay 1 Resource.

The rules OTOH say that the two LoCs are the selected Attack+Ambush spaces, so you need to pay for each of them - a total of 2 Resources - even though you removed the enemy pieces from the same third space.

Regards,
Oerjan



Oerjan am sorry, thanks for the answer is quite helpful,

I meant AMBUSH, can an underground guerrilla AMBUSH from an adjacent LoC, be accompanied with a less than 4 NVA troops ATTACK ?

In a previous post about the same topic about NVA BOT, you were writing about (Ambushes included) and I thought that I SUM the two COIN losses from the ATTACK+AMBUSH, and I thought is a combined move .
 
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Oerjan Ariander
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OK, I see. To summarize the long post above for other readers:

Combining an Attack in one space with an Ambush in another that removes a piece from the first is legal in the sense that 3.3.3 and 4.4.3 allow it, but NVAbot does n't use that option.

In the previous thread I was discussing how NVAbot selects target spaces for an Attack Op; but it can select many target spaces in a single Attack Op, and will a separate Attack space for each target space. (...and the only situation wher an Attack space can be different from its target space is a LoC Ambush.)

Regards,
Oerjan
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Oerjan wrote:
Combining an Attack in one space with an Ambush in another that removes a piece from the first is legal in the sense that 3.3.3 and 4.4.3 allow it, but NVAbot doesn't use that option.

In the previous thread I was discussing how NVAbot selects target spaces for an Attack Op; but it can select many target spaces in a single Attack Op, and will a separate Attack space for each target space. (...and the only situation wher an Attack space can be different from its target space is a LoC Ambush.)

Regards,
Oerjan

Hi Oerjan! Would you walk me through it, as it seems to me that the difference with regard to LoC Ambushes' Attack space and the adjacent space where pieces can get removed opens up the possibility that NVAbot could Attack in a space with 4+ Troops, then Ambush in an adjacent and remove pieces from the space with the Troops.. From 8.6.2:

Quote:
• First, target any enemy pieces in Laos or Cambodia, then those
within South Vietnam.
• Within that priority, Attack first in (or from, if Ambushing from
LoCs, 4.4.3) those spaces in (or from) which the most enemy
pieces total could be removed.
• Within that priority, Attack first where a Base could be removed,
then where Special Forces (Irregulars or Rangers) could be
removed, finally Troops and Police evenly (starting with the
fewest in the space, 8.1.2). For each Attack space, remove pieces
in that order, to the degree allowed.

So selection is by Attack space that could remove pieces, i.e. the Troop space and an adjacent LoC with Guerrilla could both be selected, even if the LoC Ambush will remove another piece from the NVA Troop space, no?

Quote:
WHICH NVA ATTACK: Once spaces are selected, Attack only as
follows, in the following order among spaces of the same priority
above:
• If there are at least 4 NVA Troops in the selected space, the Troops
Attack.
• Where there are fewer than 4 NVA Troops and NVA Ambush is
possible, Ambush—first with Guerrillas on LoCs—until no further
Ambush spaces are allowed.

There almost always would be fewer than 4 NVA Troops on the LoC with the Ambushing Guerrilla, so nothing here barring a Guerrilla LoC Ambush into a space just Attacked by NVA Troops within that space, right?

Thanks -- I realize that the "Ambush from LoCs" mechanic introduces complexity!
Volko
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Oerjan Ariander
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Good point! Shows how messy this rule is, when I miss details like that... not that this improve anything; it makes the Attack space selection even more convoluted shake


OK folks, forget everything I wrote about NVAbot Attacks before! Let's see if I can get it right this time - and I'm only talking about what the instructions actually say here, not what they were intended to say

The NVAbot Attack process consists of three steps:

1) Check if the bot Attacks at all (the first flowchart diamond): it Attacks if its Troops will take Control somewhere, or remove a COIN Base, or remove the last COIN piece from a space, or remove 4+ COIN pieces from a single space. Guerrillas don't count at all for this decision, regardless of what their Attacks or Ambushes might achieve.

2) If the bot does execute an Attack Op, select all potential Attack spaces before resolving any of them (the first 4 bullets of 8.6.2), remembering that the bot can't select more spaces than it has Resources (3.1). In this selection process, LoC Ambushes removing pieces in South Vietnam are dead last in the priority order due to a number of quirks in the phrasing (that I'm fairly certain we didn't intend, but they're in the rules nevertheless).

3) Resolve the selected Attack spaces in the order established in step 2, only slightly modified by additional instructions if step 2 left any Attack spaces tied. During this step the bot can end up aborting Ambushes (due to an additional quirk); if it does, it does not select new Attack spaces to replace them (but might occasionally convert them into Attacks with 4+ Guerrillas or 2-3 Troops, if there are such groups of units in those spaces along with suitable victims).


Let's take a closer look at those quirks:
Quote:
• First, target any enemy pieces in Laos or Cambodia, then those
within South Vietnam.

So far so good.

Quote:
• Within that priority, Attack first in (or from, if Ambushing from
LoCs, 4.4.3) those spaces in (or from) which the most enemy
pieces total could be removed.

First quirk: As Volko pointed out, the "in (or from) which the most enemy pieces total could be removed" applies to the Attack space. Since NVA Ambushes only ever remove 1 enemy piece per Ambush space, this pushes selection of Ambush LoCs to the bottom of this selection priority, together with other Attack spaces that would also only remove 1 piece from the same side of the South Vietnam border - i.e., Attack spaces that have either 2-3 NVA Troops, or that have groups of 4+ Guerrillas but only 1 enemy piece that could be removed.

Note that Attacks with 4+ Guerrillas that have 2+ enemy pieces present have higher priority in this bullet than Ambushes do, since those Attack spaces could remove 2 pieces rather than just 1 as long as the dice gods cooperate.

Quote:
• Within that priority, Attack first where a Base could be removed,
then where Special Forces (Irregulars or Rangers) could be
removed, finally Troops and Police evenly (starting with the
fewest in the space, 8.1.2). For each Attack space, remove pieces
in that order, to the degree allowed.

Next quirk: The previous bullet talked about Attack spaces "in/from which" enemies could be removed, but this one instead says "Attack first where a Base could be removed," etc.

I'm fairly certain that we intended this "Attack where XXX could be removed" to mean "Attack where doing so could cause XXX to be removed from anywhere", but the literal meaning of the phrase is "Attack where XXX could be remove from the Attack space itself". Such a literal reading puts Ambush LoCs that would remove pieces from another space rather than from itself below even the 2-3 Troops or 4+ Guerrillas with only 1 enemy piece to remove in the priority order.

Quote:
WHICH NVA ATTACK: Once spaces are selected, Attack only as
follows, in the following order among spaces of the same priority
above:
• If there are at least 4 NVA Troops in the selected space, the Troops
Attack.
• Where there are fewer than 4 NVA Troops and NVA Ambush is
possible, Ambush—first with Guerrillas on LoCs—until no further
Ambush spaces are allowed. (Check now to see if Ambushing per
below is possible; if not, Bombard per below before any Attacks
if enemies would remain for Attacks to remove).

Volko left the bolded part out of the quote; I put it back again.

Third quirk: in spite of its reference to "Where there are fewer than 4 NVA Troops" etc., this bullet operates within the "among spaces of the same priority order above" - i.e., the order established by the first four bullets in 8.6.2... and as we just saw, that priority order usually puts LoC Ambushes last, after all the other Attack spaces removing enemies on the same side of the South Vietnam border.

Instead it pushes non-LoC Ambushes up somewhat: Attack spaces with 4+ Guerrillas and 2+ enemy pieces that could be removed have higher priority in the "priority order above" than LoC Ambushes do, so this bullet occasionally takes a space selected because a 4+ Guerrilla Attack could remove 2 enemies and turns it into an Ambush space removing 1 enemy...

And the last and worst quirk (and the reason I put the bolded part back into the quote above): the Ambush instructions further down in 8.6.2 only allow Attack+Ambush if the Ambushes will remove a total of 2 Bases, SF or US Troops. If only one possible Ambush space is selected, or if there are two possible Ambush spaces but one (or both) of them would only remove an ARVN cube, the bot will abort the Ambush and instead Bombard. (And if it does abort Ambushes and can't instead Attack with 4+ Guerrillas or 2-3 Troops in the same spaces, it won't select any new Attack spaces to replace the aborted ones.)


So yes, you're right that it is technically possible to select a LoC to Ambush a space that has already been selected for a Troop Attack - if NVAbot has enough Resources to select such a LoC at the bottom of the priority list, and if there is at least one more possible Ambush space so the bot doesn't end up aborting the Ambushes entirely shake

Regards,
Oerjan
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Yannis Monoyios
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Thank you Guys !

Both of you are the best !

Many Thanks
Yannis
 
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Bruce Wigdor
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OK folks, forget everything I wrote about NVAbot Attacks before! Let's see if I can get it right this time - and I'm only talking about what the instructions actually say here, not what they were intended to say


Darn, I thought I was getting close to understanding things. This new way of looking at things leaves me very confused with respect to ambushes.

Quote:
Where there are fewer than 4 NVA Troops and NVA Ambush is possible, Ambush—first with Guerrillas on LoCs—until no further Ambush spaces are allowed. (Check now to see if Ambushing per below is possible; if not, Bombard per below before any Attacks if enemies would remain for Attacks to remove).


What does "first with Guerrillas on LOCs" mean? Originally, I took this to mean that an Ambush from an adjacent LOC would take priority over a small Troop Attack, but now I am unsure what it refers to.

The following comment confused me as well:

Quote:
And the last and worst quirk (and the reason I put the bolded part back into the quote above): the Ambush instructions further down in 8.6.2 only allow Attack+Ambush if the Ambushes will remove a total of 2 Bases, SF or US Troops. If only one possible Ambush space is selected, or if there are two possible Ambush spaces but one (or both) of them would only remove an ARVN cube, the bot will abort the Ambush and instead Bombard. (And if it does abort Ambushes and can't instead Attack with 4+ Guerrillas or 2-3 Troops in the same spaces, it won't select any new Attack spaces to replace the aborted ones.)


How does an Ambush space get selected in the first place if it can only remove a cube?

If this is right, and the selection of a Ambush space that will only remove a cube is possible, does that mean that this is the proper way to resolve this situation?

Example: NVA has 3 resources. There are several spaces in South Vietnam that can be regular targets. There are also 2 LOCs adjacent to spaces in Laos/Cambodia with ARVN cubes that can be removed.

So we are selecting spaces. First priority are the Laos/Cambodia spaces. Both spaces are selected, with the only possible removals being via Ambush from the adjacent LOC.

With the one resource left, we select the highest priority space we can find in South Vietnam. With that, we have selected our 3 Attack spaces and it is on to the specifics. This is where we check our Ambushes, and lo and behold, they will only remove ARVN cubes, so the Ambush is aborted, and, as per your instructions, no spaces are selected to replace the aborted ones.

So, in this instance, despite the fact that NVA has 3 resources, only 1 resource will be spent on a single attack (the highest priority attack in South Vietnam). Is this correct?

Another question: when selecting Attack spaces, and an Ambush from an LOC into an adjacent space is selected, which space is actually considered to be the Attack Space?

 
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