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John Prados' Third Reich» Forums » Rules

Subject: More diplomacy madness! rss

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Alexandre Lanciani
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Russia is at war with Italy. Germany is at war with Britain. Hungary is a German client. Molotov-Ribbentrop expired last turn.

Russia declares war on Hungary, and spends 15 BRPs because she must declare on Germany as well (5.42). Then:
* Italy and Germany become allies because they are both at war with Russia (5.22)
* Russia and Britain become allies because they are both at war with Germany (5.25).

Must then Italy and/or Britain declare war on each other? Who goes first (and pays the 15 BRPs to declare war on a Major)?

Thanks,
Alex
 
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Colin Raitt
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I think you only have to declare on a country that clients or allies with a minor power you are at war with. If you are at war with a major power and it allies with a third major power you and the third major don't have to declare on each other. That is how we eventually interpreted the alliance rules but it took a few games to decide and lots of re-reading rules.

In your situation Italy and Britain remain at peace with each other unless 1 voluntarily declares on the other. Germans can SR to Tobruk and invade Egypt unless the border is lined. The Italian army can be sent to Russia. However the Royal Navy won't be stretched and Portsmouth-Alexandria transports will proceed unmolested.

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Alexandre Lanciani
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Thanks for the always timely answers.

However, how do you interpret

Quote:

5.3 Alliance Effects
Alliances are for mutual defense. If Nation A declares war on Nation B, then Nation B and all of its allies immediately declare war on Nation A. Nation A must then immediately declare war on all of Nation B’s allies.


Here it does not mention minor powers. Also, the exception for the limited cooperation between France and Britain would be redundant.

Alex
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Colin Raitt
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5.3 starts with A declares on B. A's and B's allies get dragged in. Whereas your original example starts with Russia declares on Hungary and Germany who counter declare on her. At that precise moment Britain isn't allied with Russia and Italy isn't allied with Germany so they won't declare on each other yet. Before anything else happens, Britain allies with Russia and Italy with Germany but allying with a country doesn't force it's enemies to declare on you unless it is a minor (5.51 4th bullet point).

I realise this depends on a lot of inferring but its what we've settled with. As long as the rules were discussed and Russia was given a chance to reconsider her declaration on Hungary then other interpretations would be fair.

A different problem is that 5.3 and the example of 5.42 are contradictory. By 5.3 if A declares on B, Bs allies declare on A before A declares on them and would have to pay 15BRP each but the example says Russia's allies (A's allies)pay. We decided to go with the example.
 
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Cris
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I think that rules are clears.

Who start DoWs? Russia declares on Hungary (and Germany because Hungary is German client). Russia must pay 15 BRPs.

Rules 5.3. Russia (A) DoW on Germany (B). In this moment, Russia is on war with Germany and Italy. By rules 5.22. Germany and Italy are automatically become allied if they go to war with the same Major Power.

Follow rules 5.23....Nation B (Germany) and all of its allies (Italy) immediately declare war on Nation A (Russia and by rules (5.41)) and all of its allies (Russia and GB because by rules 5.25 are automatically become allied). By 5.41 Germany and Italy don't pay BRP to do so (5.43).

Follow rules 5.23... Nation A must then immediately declare war on all of Nation B’s allies. Now, A is Russia and his allies, in this case GB, so GB must DoW to Italy and Germany (GB was on war with Germany before Russia DoW Germany)which costs 15 BRPs to DoW on Italy.

The effects of alliances are for mutual defense. Automatically is before that immediately. If a potential ally (by rules) declares war on another nation, the consequences and costs of Declarations of War are for who declares and potential allies.

If GB don't want pay DoW... The player must speak with Russian player to avoid this DoW in bad moment.
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Colin Raitt
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I can see this as a possible interpretation of the rules. However you have Italy allying with Germany and Britain allying with Russia before Russia's allies declares on Germany's allies. Immediately is a pretty strong word and to me suggests the reverse order I.E Russia's allies declare on Germany and her allies (no declarations as neither Russia nor Germany have any allies yet). Then Russia allies with Britain and Italy allies with Germany.
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Cris
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I believe that definition is:

Automatically don't need time.

Immediately is just after any action, situation,...

Russia DoW German, Automatically German is Italian ally, because Ge and It are on war with Russia.


Besides, it isn't logique and no sense of the allies MP attacked are those who pay by declaring war on the allies of MP attacker
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Colin Raitt
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Automatic means without choice whilst immediate means without delay. Of course many automatic actions are fast, for instance our reflexes or guidance on a sidewinder missile however I shift gears manually faster than the 6 liter automatic I hired in Florida.





 
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Alexandre Lanciani
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polate wrote:
I shift gears manually faster than the 6 liter automatic I hired in Florida.


I guess it depends, probably you got a bulldozer... ehm, an american car, I mean!

Just joking, the Mustang (not the latest one which I think is ugly) I got in California was an amazing drive and I can't imagine going through LA traffic having to switch gears manually every 5 meters.

Back to the topic at hand. I think Colin is right in that 5.3 says that A has to declare war on B's allies, but doesn't mention explicitly B's allies. Only minors explicitly have to follow their major ally in war.

The fact that also MPs go to war if their allies are declared on is to me implicit in the Anglo-French cooperation restrictions, which would be otherwise redundant.

Quote:

5.21 France and Britain.
[...]
If France declares war on a third party nation, or if a third party declares war on France but not Britain, then Britain is not required to declare war on the third party.
 
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Alexandre Lanciani
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Anyway, I now understand how come AWAW rules are 200 pages long! And how helpful is to have the designer answering the questions.
 
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Alexandre Lanciani
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Actually, in the end the UK declared on Italy, but because Spain allied with Germany. Then Spain declared on the UK which in turn counter-declared on Spain and its (other) MP ally, that is, Italy.

Europe Engulfed indeed (no, that's another game )!
 
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