$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 128.91

7,615 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
48% of Goal | left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
26 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Star Trek: Attack Wing» Forums » Variants

Subject: Variant for initative rule rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
After playing for several years still not quite happy with the init rules in STAW.

My idea: Create a init token. In the setup phase the players total their CS score for their squad into one total number. Then compare who ever has the highest has init and gets the init token. In case of a tie the players roll off and the winner gets the init token. From then on all ships with the init token get a .1 added to their CS score. No more ties with init all your captains would be #.1

No other changes just play normal after that.

Just my 2 cents.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Redfearn
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Why?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Sodoff Baldrick
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Honestly this is a rule I have no problem with. If you really want initiative and you don't play Federation just build knock a few points off your squad. 2 or 3 is all you need in most cases.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Liam Thompson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mb
As someone who has only recently started playing (within the past few months) and only has a handful of games under his belt (a grand total of 14, I believe), I've got to say that the current Initiative rules are a little hard to comprehend. I understand how everything works when Captain Skills are different (low->high for movement and actions, and high->low for attacks) but it's when opposing players have captains with the same Skill that things go weird for me.

I feel that it's very unintuitive that a system where "low number moves/takes actions first and attacks last" is the default has, when there's a tie, a system where the "winner" of those ties goes "moves/takes actions first AND attacks first". Not to mention that the system of determining that winner has two ways to check (followed by the final random roll off), but those ways that you check aren't used very often (in fact, they're only used for this one scenario) making it much harder to just remember the rule when necessary.

As such, I kinda like this house rule. I'm not certain it's best working off of the TOTAL Captain Skill of all captains, but setting it so that ties are broken by +0.1 and letting it get worked out by the normal numerical values makes more sense than the current system, in my opinion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
That's one of the gamey bs moves this rule try to get rid of.

In response to sodoff
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
MaskedThespian wrote:
As someone who has only recently started playing (within the past few months) and only has a handful of games under his belt (a grand total of 14, I believe), I've got to say that the current Initiative rules are a little hard to comprehend. I understand how everything works when Captain Skills are different (low->high for movement and actions, and high->low for attacks) but it's when opposing players have captains with the same Skill that things go weird for me.

I feel that it's very unintuitive that a system where "low number moves/takes actions first and attacks last" is the default has, when there's a tie, a system where the "winner" of those ties goes "moves/takes actions first AND attacks first". Not to mention that the system of determining that winner has two ways to check (followed by the final random roll off), but those ways that you check aren't used very often (in fact, they're only used for this one scenario) making it much harder to just remember the rule when necessary.

As such, I kinda like this house rule. I'm not certain it's best working off of the TOTAL Captain Skill of all captains, but setting it so that ties are broken by +0.1 and letting it get worked out by the normal numerical values makes more sense than the current system, in my opinion.


That is my point this rule would get rid of that problem. Plus I hate a fed 6 being automatically better then any other 6. Just not right, gamey and BS in my opinion. I think this very simple rule and approach would solve those problem's.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
SMDMadCow wrote:
Why?


See answer above explained the issue I have as well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Honestly, I prefer the "move and fire first" rule. I use it for X-Wing, too, since it makes more sense to me. But play how you want to play...

Question: Do you also treat different factions as identical skill, or do you still have to keep track of that priority list?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
MaskedThespian wrote:
As someone who has only recently started playing (within the past few months) and only has a handful of games under his belt (a grand total of 14, I believe), I've got to say that the current Initiative rules are a little hard to comprehend. I understand how everything works when Captain Skills are different (low->high for movement and actions, and high->low for attacks) but it's when opposing players have captains with the same Skill that things go weird for me.

I feel that it's very unintuitive that a system where "low number moves/takes actions first and attacks last" is the default has, when there's a tie, a system where the "winner" of those ties goes "moves/takes actions first AND attacks first". Not to mention that the system of determining that winner has two ways to check (followed by the final random roll off), but those ways that you check aren't used very often (in fact, they're only used for this one scenario) making it much harder to just remember the rule when necessary.

As such, I kinda like this house rule. I'm not certain it's best working off of the TOTAL Captain Skill of all captains, but setting it so that ties are broken by +0.1 and letting it get worked out by the normal numerical values makes more sense than the current system, in my opinion.


The total captain skill just determine who gets the token to determine who gets the token. You could roll off every tie but I would just think this easier.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Redfearn
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
By emphasising Captain skill even more, this mechanic will be gamed even easier by players. Expect to see a lot of high skill captains (like we dont see enough Picard9) with skill boosts, or swarms with mid range and double fighters like this alot (2 skill 6 for 40 points).
This basically punishes players taking lower skill captains.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
Bwian wrote:
Honestly, I prefer the "move and fire first" rule. I use it for X-Wing, too, since it makes more sense to me. But play how you want to play...

Question: Do you also treat different factions as identical skill, or do you still have to keep track of that priority list?


Yes all factions would be the same. That faction pecking order thing makes no sense to me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
SMDMadCow wrote:
By emphasising Captain skill even more, this mechanic will be gamed even easier by players. Expect to see a lot of high skill captains (like we dont see enough Picard9) with skill boosts, or swarms with mid range and double fighters like this alot (2 skill 6 for 40 points).
This basically punishes players taking lower skill captains.

Disagree. 1st you get gamey with player taking a squad point off or two to get that double/Frist move. 2nd people take captains for their talents and skills. If you wanna go with 3 9's just to win init. Well you be paying the cost, in points anyway so yeah go for 3v9,s . I got my 3 6's and I still move First. all this rule will avoid is that cheesey move/shoot first ships.THAT is counter to logic. Plus it gets rid of the faction peck order which is not logical. How do you even determine it.... tell me that isnt gamey or effect game choice.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bwian, just
United States
Longmont
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hadrian132 wrote:
Bwian wrote:
Honestly, I prefer the "move and fire first" rule. I use it for X-Wing, too, since it makes more sense to me. But play how you want to play...

Question: Do you also treat different factions as identical skill, or do you still have to keep track of that priority list?


Yes all factions would be the same. That faction pecking order thing makes no sense to me.

There's a couple hundred people on some of these ships. They don't make a difference in this game very often, but this is one of the places they do.

(That said, I still refer to the list at the bottom of the fleet sheets to keep track of who is ahead in some of the less common factions.)

hadrian132 wrote:
Disagree. 1st you get gamey with player taking a squad point off or two to get that double/Frist move. 2nd people take captains for their talents and skills. If you wanna go with 3 9's just to win init. Well you be paying the cost, in points anyway so yeah go for 3v9,s . I got my 3 6's and I still move First. all this rule will avoid is that cheesey move/shoot first ships.THAT is counter to logic. Plus it gets rid of the faction peck order which is not logical. How do you even determine it.... tell me that isnt gamey or effect game choice.

It doesn't strike me as any more gamey than assuming three high-skill Klingon captains will cooperate to retain initiative (rather than try to show each other up for the glory). Or that a highly trained Starfleet crew will react just as quickly to commands as Bajoran guerillas.

There are abstractions all over the place in this game. I guess this isn't all that high on the list of abstractions that annoy me; obviously you feel differently. IDIC and all that rot, I guess...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Wene
United States
Unspecified
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The move first, fire first rule is the one of the more difficult things to get new players to understand. Intuitively, you would just move based on increasing CS and fire based on decreasing. And that's what many new players want to grasp. The equal CS leading to the move first, fire first rule just throws out the simplicity.

Also it just seems wrong to accept the fact that sometimes a lower CS is just better all around. Correct me if I'm mis-thinking this, but for example; Fed with CS8 vs Klingon with CS8 is in many (or most) cases better for the Fed than Fed CS9 vs Klingon CS8. Or at least it seems that way in my experiences.

So, I don't know if the OP's suggestion is the best solution or not, but this is definitely a rules area that could be tightened up a bit. Maybe v2 will solve all of these nitpicks we have.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
Mike Wene wrote:
The move first, fire first rule is the one of the more difficult things to get new players to understand. Intuitively, you would just move based on increasing CS and fire based on decreasing. And that's what many new players want to grasp. The equal CS leading to the move first, fire first rule just throws out the simplicity.

Also it just seems wrong to accept the fact that sometimes a lower CS is just better all around. Correct me if I'm mis-thinking this, but for example; Fed with CS8 vs Klingon with CS8 is in many (or most) cases better for the Fed than Fed CS9 vs Klingon CS8. Or at least it seems that way in my experiences.

So, I don't know if the OP's suggestion is the best solution or not, but this is definitely a rules area that could be tightened up a bit. Maybe v2
will solve all of these nitpicks we have.


Thank you my main idea is to get rid of the times were you have a move/shoot first situations. I use the totals of a side just for ease of play. If you wanted you could roll off every tied pair and just assign a .1 to every winner, but that way you could have a .1 on different sides and could get confusing. Just wanna get rid of move/shoot first and that.....aha..hmmm....stupid ranking of the factions beine needed.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Redfearn
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This also removes simultaneous shooting.

Moving first really isnt that great an advantage.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
SMDMadCow wrote:
This also removes simultaneous shooting.

Moving first really isnt that great an advantage.


Not exactly but some people prefer to move first, and moving first/and shooting first is a big advantage. Also simultanous is rare and since it's not a basic component of the games. So again why not just get rid of the whole mismos and be done with it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Wene
United States
Unspecified
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Could be as easy as using your 0.1 modifier. Although I would suggest it becomes inherent to the faction. So if Fed 8 faces a Kli 8, then the Fed is effectively an 8.1, or 8+, or any other such notation, for the duration of the game. Then it is pretty clear for the entire movement and attack phases.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Liam Thompson
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mb
I do sometimes wonder if Initiative faction order could be something that Wizkids could update on a regular basis, and make it so that underused/less powerful factions go up in the ranks of Initiative whilst overused/more powerful factions go down in the ranks.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Redfearn
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hadrian132 wrote:
SMDMadCow wrote:
This also removes simultaneous shooting.

Moving first really isnt that great an advantage.


Not exactly but some people prefer to move first, and moving first/and shooting first is a big advantage. Also simultanous is rare and since it's not a basic component of the games. So again why not just get rid of the whole mismos and be done with it.


Wait, you want to change how equal skill captains work with the chief complaint being moving and shooting first and call simultaneous shooting rare and 'not a basic component'? It's as basic as any other part of the system. Really the whole initiative system as it stands is to differentiate between equal skill captains.

And no, moving first and shooting first is not a big advantage. Shooting first has the advantage, that's why high captain skill is popular. Moving last will have the advantage if you have a way to capitalize on your opponent no longer being able to move out of arc.

I don't see the need to change it at all, but go ahead and run some games then report back on how it worked, how it felt and what changed in fleet building.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
SMDMadCow wrote:
hadrian132 wrote:
SMDMadCow wrote:
This also removes simultaneous shooting.

Moving first really isnt that great an advantage.


Not exactly but some people prefer to move first, and moving first/and shooting first is a big advantage. Also simultanous is rare and since it's not a basic component of the games. So again why not just get rid of the whole mismos and be done with it.


Wait, you want to change how equal skill captains work with the chief complaint being moving and shooting first and call simultaneous shooting rare and 'not a basic component'? It's as basic as any other part of the system. Really the whole initiative system as it stands is to differentiate between equal skill captains.

And no, moving first and shooting first is not a big advantage. Shooting first has the advantage, that's why high captain skill is popular. Moving last will have the advantage if you have a way to capitalize on your opponent no longer being able to move out of arc.

I don't see the need to change it at all, but go ahead and run some games then report back on how it worked, how it felt and what changed in fleet building.


First many players like moving first so they consider that an advantage. The very reason low moves first high shoots firsts is to balance out the game. That's why parker designed it that way. Otherwise it would have just been high to low move/shoot first as seen in other designs. So I feel that the whole move/shoot first is a big advantage. On that point will just have to disagree. As for sim fire to be honest because its so counter intuitive we miss it a lot of times at the op's I play at. And the group I play with has been playing since the beginning and even we miss it a lot of times, that is how difficult it is to remember at times. But my question is what is the big deal? If all you lose is sim fire so what. You also ignore the other big complaints you get an advantage simply because of the faction you pick....I dislike the whole faction pecking order chart. The idea is not logical and how do you really defend it. Especially when you start mixing. Fed ship, Klingon cap, borg weapon, dom tech, but its still one faction for faction purpose.....yeah.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Redfearn
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
hadrian132 wrote:

First many players like moving first so they consider that an advantage.


I've actually had to correct players that had advantage and wanted to move last to react to my fleet's movement or let me come into TL range. Agree to disagree then.

Quote:
The very reason low moves first high shoots firsts is to balance out the game. That's why parker designed it that way. Otherwise it would have just been high to low move/shoot first as seen in other designs. So I feel that the whole move/shoot first is a big advantage. On that point will just have to disagree.


I assume you mean Andrew Parks, he didn't design this part of the game - it stayed largely unchanged from the Flight Path system used in X-wing that was licensed from FFG, including the X faction goes first (Imperial).

Quote:
As for sim fire to be honest because its so counter intuitive we miss it a lot of times at the op's I play at. And the group I play with has been playing since the beginning and even we miss it a lot of times, that is how difficult it is to remember at times.


Well, that's on you, it's not that hard a concept to grasp. Maybe it's because I've been playing Battletech for years, which is another alternating activation/shooting game with the big difference in that all shooting is simultaneous.

Quote:
But my question is what is the big deal? If all you lose is sim fire so what. You also ignore the other big complaints you get an advantage simply because of the faction you pick....I dislike the whole faction pecking order chart. The idea is not logical and how do you really defend it. Especially when you start mixing. Fed ship, Klingon cap, borg weapon, dom tech, but its still one faction for faction purpose.....yeah.


Ordinarily I couldn't care less about initiative, since it's completely arbitrary and only serves to put an order to otherwise simultaneous activations of equal skill captains. Roll off, faction pick, coin flip, pissing distance - as long as it stays arbitrary, who cares.
But, what you're proposing will place even more emphasis on high captain skill in addition to removing simultaneous fire - which can save your ass at times. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed, I'm saying it shouldn't be based on captain skill and shouldn't change skill values.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Wene
United States
Unspecified
Michigan
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The troubling part is that captain skill levels do change, within a round at times. e.g., Martok9 vs Picard9....in the movement phase Picard is effectively an 8.9, but then in the attack phase he is effectively a 9.1.

That's pretty screwed up. Regardless of whether or not moving first is an advantage/disadvantage.

Just make it one way or the other to tighten up the rules, for simplicities sake.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
Mike Wene wrote:
The troubling part is that captain skill levels do change, within a round at times. e.g., Martok9 vs Picard9....in the movement phase Picard is effectively an 8.9, but then in the attack phase he is effectively a 9.1.

That's pretty screwed up. Regardless of whether or not moving first is an advantage/disadvantage.

Just make it one way or the other to tighten up the rules, for simplicities sake.


That happens now in the game with crew cards that add CS and then get killed disabled. This rule would just make Picard 9 and Martok 9.1 for the game. For an optonal rule I was thinking if there is some change to total CS then just swap the init card at the end phase. Your 9 becomes 9.1 and his 9.1 becomes 9 procedures from there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Larry DeStefano
United States
Bloomingburg
New York
flag msg tools
SMDMadCow wrote:
hadrian132 wrote:

First many players like moving first so they consider that an advantage.


I've actually had to correct players that had advantage and wanted to move last to react to my fleet's movement or let me come into TL range. Agree to disagree then.

Quote:
The very reason low moves first high shoots firsts is to balance out the game. That's why parker designed it that way. Otherwise it would have just been high to low move/shoot first as seen in other designs. So I feel that the whole move/shoot first is a big advantage. On that point will just have to disagree.


I assume you mean Andrew Parks, he didn't design this part of the game - it stayed largely unchanged from the Flight Path system used in X-wing that was licensed from FFG, including the X faction goes first (Imperial).

Quote:
As for sim fire to be honest because its so counter intuitive we miss it a lot of times at the op's I play at. And the group I play with has been playing since the beginning and even we miss it a lot of times, that is how difficult it is to remember at times.


Well, that's on you, it's not that hard a concept to grasp. Maybe it's because I've been playing Battletech for years, which is another alternating activation/shooting game with the big difference in that all shooting is simultaneous.

Quote:
But my question is what is the big deal? If all you lose is sim fire so what. You also ignore the other big complaints you get an advantage simply because of the faction you pick....I dislike the whole faction pecking order chart. The idea is not logical and how do you really defend it. Especially when you start mixing. Fed ship, Klingon cap, borg weapon, dom tech, but its still one faction for faction purpose.....yeah.


Ordinarily I couldn't care less about initiative, since it's completely arbitrary and only serves to put an order to otherwise simultaneous activations of equal skill captains. Roll off, faction pick, coin flip, pissing distance - as long as it stays arbitrary, who cares.
But, what you're proposing will place even more emphasis on high captain skill in addition to removing simultaneous fire - which can save your ass at times. I'm not saying it shouldn't be changed, I'm saying it shouldn't be based on captain skill and shouldn't change skill values.


Okay at this point are you trying to make a point or just trolling. The personal attack because me and my group forget sim fire really rude. 2nd at the eND you say it's all arbitrary and could care less. You just bugged by using CS. Well i,m open to idea unlike some.....lol give me a couple terms proposal. I use captain skill for several reasons. You don't know what your opponent picks till you show up hence it's a guessing game. And really si nce init is tied to CS anyway people pick high CS now because of that reason so why is using g the total such a radical departure. Unless for some reason your wedded to sim fire.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.