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Subject: Today's Quiz: Siberian Dice Puzzle rss

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Artem Borovkov
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Here is a puzzle, based on Siberian Dice game mechanics.


Rules are easy, solving need some stress. Please, give response if you test this. If there would be interest, I'll publish new puzzles. May be someone would try to create a hard puzzle by his own - I'd like to solve it.

Rules. To solve a puzzle you should cross out all dice one by one. You can cross out only perfect dice. A die is perfect when the number of pips on its face equals the amount of dice neighboring it, regardless pips on them. Zero means a die, which is always perfect, no matter the amount of its neighbors. By crossing a die you change perfection status of neighboring dice: that’s how a puzzle can be solved.

Feel free to print this PnP.
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DJ Wilde
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
Took me a minute or two to figure out how this works, but very interesting. I'll have to print it out for a better view.
 
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1 Lucky Texan
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
so, the 0 dice can be immediately struck and removed? - such that they are no longer on the board?

and the goal is ?, to make certain any remaining dice are perfect, but, they are not removed? or to remove as many perfected dice one-at-a-time?

I think I'm confused
 
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
The order of removing zeroes means: if you cross out zeroes at the beginning, you'll fail in solving this. And remember also, that dice should be removed one by one - not like in 37.6 Solitaire. Look at the second page of PnP with the answers to get a trick.
 
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
GalaxyZento wrote:
Took me a minute or two to figure out how this works, but very interesting. I'll have to print it out for a better view.


I'm very interested about the complexity of these puzzles: in theory they can be made very hard and big, but need to stay fun. I'll be thankful if you tell your opinion on this after test.
 
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
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Robert Wesley
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
hothagrid wrote:
Here is a puzzle, based on Siberian Dice game mechanics.


Rules are easy, solving need some stress. Please, give response if you test this. If there would be interest, I'll publish new puzzles. May be someone would try to create a hard puzzle by his own - I'd like to solve it.

Rules. To solve a puzzle you should cross out all dice one by one. You can cross out only perfect dice. A die is perfect when the number of pips on its face equals the amount of dice neighboring it, regardless pips on them. Zero means a die, which is always perfect, no matter the amount of its neighbors. By crossing a die you change perfection status of neighboring dice: that’s how a puzzle can be solved.

Feel free to print this PnP.
googoo ~"ZEE 'Avocado Goggles' were NOT Binoculars'!"
 
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Robert Wesley
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
hothagrid wrote:
arrrh ~"MY one lone 'good-eye' isn't 'microscope', either!"
 
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
GROGnads wrote:
arrrh ~"MY one lone 'good-eye' isn't 'microscope', either!"

Thanks, you made me to get the meaning of some tags)
 
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Russ Williams
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
hothagrid wrote:
Rules are easy, solving need some stress. Please, give response if you test this. If there would be interest, I'll publish new puzzles.


I printed it and tried solving by crossing out hexes with pencil, but found that if I made an error it was difficult to undo. So this morning I found some small wooden disks and "crossed out" by placing a disk onto a hex, and this worked very nicely! I solved it, and found it interesting and enjoyable.

As a paper/pencil puzzle where you cross out hexes, it does have the practical problem that unlike many paper/pencil puzzles (Sudoku, Nonograms, etc) you can't verify by looking at the final result whether it is correct or whether you made some error along the way. So I found myself imagining that it might work better as a computer program, but I don't know.

In any case, thanks for the fun puzzle!
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
russ wrote:
I printed it and tried solving by crossing out hexes with pencil, but found that if I made an error it was difficult to undo.

Sudoku got the same problem - players usually write a few numbers in the same cell. By myself I crossed with lines of different angles (one of three possible) or with pencils of different color. But yes, that's a problem - computer version would cope this, suppose.

russ wrote:
In any case, thanks for the fun puzzle!

Thanks for a try! This was unplayable and with unclear rules until I introduced zeroes.
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Eugene Panferov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
russ wrote:
As a paper/pencil puzzle where you cross out hexes, it does have the practical problem that unlike many paper/pencil puzzles (Sudoku, Nonograms, etc) you can't verify by looking at the final result whether it is correct or whether you made some error along the way. So I found myself imagining that it might work better as a computer program


a computer program is absolutely necessary, and I will make it happen on siberiandice.com and the android app. But it is much more interesting for us to get this shit printed on paper somewhere, like the paper stuff people buy in airports to kill time and such.

Any advise and/or contact details would be highly appreciated.
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Russ Williams
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
FWIW, some more feedback:

I did the second puzzle (again by placing disks to cover the hexes one after the other as I progressed) and succeed much faster than the first one. I don't know if it was because I was more experienced or because it was easier.

My wife tried one and found it interesting too, but also agreed that it's too bad the final result (when you've marked all the cells) is not verifiable by looking at it like many "Japanese puzzles" are.
 
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Eugene Panferov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
we can create a hash function that takes a puzzle solution as its argument and provide the hash for each puzzle. Then the problem is to make this function easy and fun to calculate manually.
 
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Russ Williams
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
silly_sad wrote:
we can create a hash function that takes a puzzle solution as its argument and provide the hash for each puzzle. Then the problem is to make this function easy and fun to calculate manually.

To clarify: The problem I mean is that the "solution" is a sequence of moves, so to check one's solution, one would need to record that sequence of moves to check it. (Which would be very cumbersome by hand.) When a Siberian Dice puzzle is solved, the resulting state that one sees is simply that every hex is covered/marked. But you can't know whether they were covered/marked in a correct way, or whether the "solver" simply covered/marked every hex (e.g. in random order, or row by row.)

In contrast, a sudoku or nonogram etc's solution is simply the resulting image - it doesn't matter what order of steps you used to arrive at the solution. So just by looking at the final state of a sudoku or nonogram (i.e. at the filled-in cells) -- even without having watched the person solve it or without knowing what sequence of steps they made -- you can verify by looking at it that it is correctly solved.
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
russ wrote:

To clarify: The problem I mean is that the "solution" is a sequence of moves, so to check one's solution, one would need to record that sequence of moves to check it. (Which would be very cumbersome by hand.) When a Siberian Dice puzzle is solved, the resulting state that one sees is simply that every hex is covered/marked. But you can't know whether they were covered/marked in a correct way, or whether the "solver" simply covered/marked every hex (e.g. in random order, or row by row.)

In contrast, a sudoku or nonogram etc's solution is simply the resulting image - it doesn't matter what order of steps you used to arrive at the solution. So just by looking at the final state of a sudoku or nonogram (i.e. at the filled-in cells) -- even without having watched the person solve it or without knowing what sequence of steps they made -- you can verify by looking at it that it is correctly solved.


I proposed quite easy solution to this, but Eugene said, that was a bad idea. The whole order of removed dice don't matter really: the meaningful one is only the order of zeroes. We can write a letter inside each zero, so that after solving you'll get a word. Now i try to generate puzzles with a very short number of possible zero-order decisions. For some letter sets there many possible word permutations, so those letters don't say much until solved.
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Russ Williams
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
hothagrid wrote:
I proposed quite easy solution to this, but Eugene said, that was a bad idea. The whole order of removed dice don't matter really: the meaningful one is only the order of zeroes.

That's a good interesting point; the zeroes are the key spaces and the other nearby removals are usually pretty easy/obvious after removing a zero. So noting only the order of the zeroes would be a more compact (and probably sufficient) way of representing the solution sequence indeed.
 
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
russ wrote:
That's a good interesting point; the zeroes are the key spaces and the other nearby removals are usually pretty easy/obvious after removing a zero. So noting only the order of the zeroes would be a more compact (and probably sufficient) way of representing the solution sequence indeed.


Here are two small puzzles with words for your fun.
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Russ Williams
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
hothagrid wrote:
Here are two small puzzles with words for your fun.
Spoiler (click to reveal)

The first is RECENT (which was guessable by anagram)

But the 2nd one seems like, unless I'm confused, the first 3 letters can be any permutation ORD, ODR, DRO, DOR, RDO, ROD, can't they? And then SET. So... DORSET (county in England)?
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Eugene Panferov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
this entire idea with letters is so overtly corrupt beyond words (pun intended). it literally (no pun intended) destroys the Dice puzzle, reducing it to a game of anagrams.

i am ashamed this was brought to the public.
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
russ wrote:
Spoilers

Right answers!)

But I agree with Eugene, that words can spoil the whole thing. Also there is a real lack of appropriate 6-letter English words.
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
Finally succeeded in finding single decision puzzles - here is one of them.
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Eugene Panferov
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Verification And Grarification
Obviously a solution of the Siberian Dice puzzle is a permutation. You can imagine a clouds-and-arrows diagram of a map -- the set of arrows represents our solution. We can arbitrary assign a domain and co-domain to this map. So that solving a puzzle the player recreates an arbitrary map.

A series of these maps may constitute a cypher.
If we now supply a piece of cyphertext with a series of puzzles, we can consider the decyphered prototype of the given cyphertext a goal of the game and an ultimate "checkpoint" for those who are unsure of the correctness of the solution.

The problem here is: the solutions are non-unique.
although, there is hope: for each set of functions there are multiple "STABLE PAIRS" some dice are destined to be removed before certain other dice -- these "stable pairs" are solutions' invariants.

If we find a way to detect stable pairs with certainty, we may use them to compose a target cypher (ignoring the rest of the arrows).

The problem is: this task does not seem very simple.
Although, there is hope: a huge chunk of "non-uniqueness" is determined by the puzzle connectivity -- once a puzzle falls into two disconnected components they are INDEPENDENT puzzles, so that their respective solutions could be arbitrary mixed. So to speak the solutions are non-unique in a special way, they maintain a distinguished relation between them.
 
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Artem Borovkov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
silly_sad wrote:
The problem here is: the solutions are non-unique.
although, there is hope: for each set of functions there are multiple "STABLE PAIRS" some dice are destined to be removed before certain other dice -- these "stable pairs" are solutions' invariants.


Not a problem, currently: I've already found a way how to create nontrivial one solution puzzles. But I don't like the cypher proposal - that won't motivate me to play, too dull and abstract: for very small audience.
 
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Eugene Panferov
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Re: Siberian Dice Puzzle for sudoku fans and others
hothagrid wrote:
silly_sad wrote:
The problem here is: the solutions are non-unique.
although, there is hope: for each set of functions there are multiple "STABLE PAIRS" some dice are destined to be removed before certain other dice -- these "stable pairs" are solutions' invariants.


Not a problem, currently: I've already found a way how to create nontrivial one solution puzzles. But I don't like the cypher proposal - that won't motivate me to play, too dull and abstract: for very small audience.


could you PLEASE at least 10% of the time refrain from jumping to conclusions?
 
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