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Subject: Who should we believe? rss

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William Farnum
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Last night there was held on NBC a Commander-in-chief national security forum. A question was asked by a Navy Veteran, who held a top secret security clearance during his service. He stated that had he done with classified material what Hillary has done he would have been prosecuted and imprisoned. Hilary's response was this “none of the emails sent or received by me had a secret or top secret or confidential header".

That seems strange since we recently had the congressional hearing from James Comey who is the director of the FBI. In that hearing he stated
"From the group of 30,000 emails returned to the State Department in 2014, 110 emails in 52 email chains have been determined by the owning agency to contain classified information at the time they were sent or received".

Now the interesting thing about Clinton's statement was that she said they did not have the classified header. It's all appears to be more interesting when you factor this in.

http://m.washingtonexaminer.com/clinton-asked-aide-to-remove...

Up until now Hillary has been pretty open and honest right? We should not have any reason to think that her statement last night was parsed and stated just so but that it was open and honest.
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J
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knucklesamwich wrote:
We should not have any reason to think that her statement last night was parsed and stated just so but that it was open and honest.

ok
 
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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jmilum wrote:
knucklesamwich wrote:
We should not have any reason to think that her statement last night was parsed and stated just so but that it was open and honest.

ok


Was that you whispering in her ear?
 
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William Farnum
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Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
knucklesamwich wrote:
We should not have any reason to think that her statement last night was parsed and stated just so but that it was open and honest.

ok


Was that you whispering in her ear?


I'd like to give her an earful but due to her mental state she apparently wouldn't remember it the next day.
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J
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Koldfoot wrote:
Was that you whispering in her ear?

I think it was Biden
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Donald
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knucklesamwich wrote:
Last night there was held on NBC a Commander-in-chief national security forum. A question was asked by a Navy Veteran, who held a top secret security clearance during his service. He stated that had he done with classified material what Hillary has done he would have been prosecuted and imprisoned.


Was the Navy Veteran a lawyer or a legal expert in any way? Does he really know what would happen in those circumstances or was he just assuming/repeating what he was told by someone equally as knowledgeable?



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Kaitlyn Smith
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knucklesamwich wrote:
We should not have any reason to think that her statement last night was parsed and stated just so but that it was open and honest.
We have one reason, it was Hillary Clinton and her lips were moving.

Honestly though, was this really NBC asking about emails? I was shocked! I expected to see an hour long commercial for Hillary and it was far from it. In fact, I thought it was too much "why should we trust you when you were incompetent with the emails?" and not enough "How are you going to protect our national interests?".
 
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Donald wrote:
knucklesamwich wrote:
Last night there was held on NBC a Commander-in-chief national security forum. A question was asked by a Navy Veteran, who held a top secret security clearance during his service. He stated that had he done with classified material what Hillary has done he would have been prosecuted and imprisoned.


Was the Navy Veteran a lawyer or a legal expert in any way? Does he really know what would happen in those circumstances or was he just assuming/repeating what he was told by someone equally as knowledgeable?





Maybe it is all bluster, but they do hammer that shit into you about not spilling information over, intentional or not. Not to mention any unclassified system that came in touch with a classified information would have to be sanitized. An annoying process, and one I'm guessing didn't happen with Hillary.

And I'll add that if it was done once, ok shit happens. But if it was done repeatedly, his clearance would be stripped, and he would probably have been fired eventually.

Do I have no proof? No, not really. But given the size of the US Government, with contractors galore, and classified spillage does occur, I can't imagine it not happening. It just isn't newsworthy with Joe Blow accidently does it for the fifth time and his boss realizes he isn't a good fit for the operation anymore.
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William Farnum
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Donald wrote:
knucklesamwich wrote:
Last night there was held on NBC a Commander-in-chief national security forum. A question was asked by a Navy Veteran, who held a top secret security clearance during his service. He stated that had he done with classified material what Hillary has done he would have been prosecuted and imprisoned.


Was the Navy Veteran a lawyer or a legal expert in any way? Does he really know what would happen in those circumstances or was he just assuming/repeating what he was told by someone equally as knowledgeable?






Who knows but she again was trying sell to America the lie that she didn't do what we all know she did. Wasn't it Joseph Goebbels that said:

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie.
 
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Chris
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COMPNOR wrote:
Donald wrote:
knucklesamwich wrote:
Last night there was held on NBC a Commander-in-chief national security forum. A question was asked by a Navy Veteran, who held a top secret security clearance during his service. He stated that had he done with classified material what Hillary has done he would have been prosecuted and imprisoned.


Was the Navy Veteran a lawyer or a legal expert in any way? Does he really know what would happen in those circumstances or was he just assuming/repeating what he was told by someone equally as knowledgeable?





Maybe it is all bluster, but they do hammer that shit into you about not spilling information over, intentional or not. Not to mention any unclassified system that came in touch with a classified information would have to be sanitized. An annoying process, and one I'm guessing didn't happen with Hillary.

And I'll add that if it was done once, ok shit happens. But if it was done repeatedly, his clearance would be stripped, and he would probably have been fired eventually.

Do I have no proof? No, not really. But given the size of the US Government, with contractors galore, and classified spillage does occur, I can't imagine it not happening. It just isn't newsworthy with Joe Blow accidently does it for the fifth time and his boss realizes he isn't a good fit for the operation anymore.


I agree with Compnor on all points. I was in the military and held a clearance and they hammer that shit into you. What exactly they will do I don't know because they scare the shit out of you so bad you would never attempt anything remotely like this. But anyone with a clearance would certainly expect that if they did anything like this they would be thrown in Guantanamo Bay and forgotten.

Anyone who has held a clearance is also baffled by her lack of knowledge on the matter. To say she didn't know emails were classified, well you get so much training that you should recognize when some things should be classified even if they aren't marked. Plus if you ever slip up, there is always that one fucking guy who loves going around yelling OPSEC! OPSEC! who you want to punch in the face like that kid in elementary school who would remind they teacher they didn't assign homework.

Plus, the military is all about leading by example and owning up to one's mistakes. So for her to get off like she did leaves a bad taste in a lot of ex-military's mouth.

For me, knowing what I know about classified information and computer systems, I am just fucking stunned Hillary did all this. OK she's like 70 years old or something, I get she doesn't know shit about computers. But she should have someone who does know fucking tell her about this stuff. Seriously I blame the State department and the IT staff more than anyone else. I want to know what fucking IT guy allowed this god damned cluster fuck to happen because, well I want his fucking job. Clearly I can do it better and I bet I get paid way less than he does.
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Isaac Citrom
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What Chris (and others) said.

I would underline what we in the parliamentary tradition call ministerial responsibility. It doesn't matter whether you knew about it or did it on purpose or whether you had not a thing to do with it. The buck stops there. Many a minister has lost his or her job as such.

The former Canadian minister of defence, Peter MacKay, lost his job because he left his laptop, containing NATO classified material, unattended where his girlfriend could have had access. That was enough to lose his job.

It's beyond me how Mrs. Clinton gets away with it, why she's allowed to get away with it, and mostly why she is reflexively defended by so many on this topic.
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"Sometimes, the dark side overcomes what Lincoln called the better angels of our nature"
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I was in the Navy, and had a security clearance, AND was totally aware that the difference between me and the Secretary of State could fill the grand canyon.

I mean, she wasn't military, she wasn't under the UCMJ. She was a political presidential placed cabinet member. Essentially, a private contractor placed at the whims of the current administration, and at most she should be removed from the office by the President for a shotty job..guess what, she isn't Sec. of State anymore, so there, lucky day. The only reason she got a clearance is because well, El Presidente' has powers to say, boom, she's my guy, she gets it, and the senate goes, no problemo.

And do I believe she was a little clueless when dealing with sensitive information? Hell, yeah, she's the same age as my mom, and my mom still doesn't know that sharing my FB posts won't be seen by any of her friends because I didn't mark it public.

Old people and technology are pretty fucking clueless.

But seriously, people need to get over it. She isn't the little people, and she's not going to be held up to the same rules as some dumb ass squid at the bottom of the chain of command who signed away his rights for a measly monthly allowance and a bunk.
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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Interesting take.

Where does destroying phones with a hammer and use of Bleachbit to erase data fit in that scenario?
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Christopher Bird
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isaacc wrote:
The former Canadian minister of defence, Peter MacKay, lost his job because he left his laptop, containing NATO classified material, unattended where his girlfriend could have had access. That was enough to lose his job.


In the first place, it was Maxime Bernier, not MacKay.

In the second place, it was a dossier folder and not a laptop.

In the third place, Bernier's girlfriend had also been involved in a bidding process for airport security contracts and her bid was connected to organized crime, so Bernier was already in a lot of hot water.

In the fourth place, Bernier voluntarily resigned from Cabinet, but continued to serve as an MP, and was back in Cabinet three years later, which position he held for another four years after that, and is currently the frontrunner for the Tory leadership, so christ I don't even know what your point is
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Boaty McBoatface
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It is possible to not classify a document and for it to contain classified information, at one time the encyclopedia Britannica did.

 
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Koldfoot wrote:
Interesting take.

Where does destroying phones with a hammer and use of Bleachbit to erase data fit in that scenario?

Surprisingly good OPSEC for a technologically challenged group.
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Isaac Citrom
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mightygodking wrote:
isaacc wrote:
The former Canadian minister of defence, Peter MacKay, lost his job because he left his laptop, containing NATO classified material, unattended where his girlfriend could have had access. That was enough to lose his job.


In the first place, it was Maxime Bernier, not MacKay.

In the second place, it was a dossier folder and not a laptop.

In the third place, Bernier's girlfriend had also been involved in a bidding process for airport security contracts and her bid was connected to organized crime, so Bernier was already in a lot of hot water.

In the fourth place, Bernier voluntarily resigned from Cabinet, but continued to serve as an MP, and was back in Cabinet three years later, which position he held for another four years after that, and is currently the frontrunner for the Tory leadership, so christ I don't even know what your point is


Yes, Maxime Bernier.
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William Farnum
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MWChapel wrote:
I was in the Navy, and had a security clearance, AND was totally aware that the difference between me and the Secretary of State could fill the grand canyon.

I mean, she wasn't military, she wasn't under the UCMJ. She was a political presidential placed cabinet member. Essentially, a private contractor placed at the whims of the current administration, and at most she should be removed from the office by the President for a shotty job..guess what, she isn't Sec. of State anymore, so there, lucky day. The only reason she got a clearance is because well, El Presidente' has powers to say, boom, she's my guy, she gets it, and the senate goes, no problemo.

And do I believe she was a little clueless when dealing with sensitive information? Hell, yeah, she's the same age as my mom, and my mom still doesn't know that sharing my FB posts won't be seen by any of her friends because I didn't mark it public.

Old people and technology are pretty fucking clueless.

But seriously, people need to get over it. She isn't the little people, and she's not going to be held up to the same rules as some dumb ass squid at the bottom of the chain of command who signed away his rights for a measly monthly allowance and a bunk.


We should get over it? This woman wants to lead the country now and she has absolutely no character and a very convenient memory of a gnat.
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knucklesamwich wrote:
This woman wants to lead the country now and she has absolutely no character and a very convenient memory of a gnat.

Which candidate do you support?
 
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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isaacc wrote:
It's beyond me how Mrs. Clinton gets away with it, why she's allowed to get away with it, and mostly why she is reflexively defended by so many on this topic.


Easy. She's a Democrat.

She's also a member of the political class, and she's a Clinton. She has a thick web of protection around her.
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Drew
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Thanks for the rent-free space in your head. Would have been nice if you'd cleaned it up a bit before you rented it out, though.
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MWChapel wrote:
And do I believe she was a little clueless when dealing with sensitive information? Hell, yeah, she's the same age as my mom, and my mom still doesn't know that sharing my FB posts won't be seen by any of her friends because I didn't mark it public.

Old people and technology are pretty fucking clueless.


This is not the selling point you think it is.

Quote:
But seriously, people need to get over it. She isn't the little people, and she's not going to be held up to the same rules as some dumb ass squid at the bottom of the chain of command who signed away his rights for a measly monthly allowance and a bunk.


Wow.

So that whole "everyone equal under the law" thing is just for show? I mean, the political class has certainly demonstrated that they won't hold themselves to the same rules, but the idea that the citizen class are also wholly in favor of the political class not having to obey the same laws . . . that's just jaw-dropping.



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Professor of Pain
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The Hillary Clinton Email Story is Out of Control.

Washington Post Editorial wrote:
Imagine how history would judge today’s Americans if, looking back at this election, the record showed that voters empowered a dangerous man because of . . . a minor email scandal. There is no equivalence between Ms. Clinton’s wrongs and Mr. Trump’s manifest unfitness for office.
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Drew1365 wrote:


So that whole "everyone equal under the law" thing is just for show? I mean, the political class has certainly demonstrated that they won't hold themselves to the same rules, but the idea that the citizen class are also wholly in favor of the political class not having to obey the same laws . . . that's just jaw-dropping.



For a clueless idiot, yeah, maybe.

The president has executive power to pardon whoever the hell they want...it's written into the law.

Sorry, Drew, we are not all equal. It's not a democracy.
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Professor of Pain
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Also, the title of this thread should be "Whom should we believe?"
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Chris
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MWChapel wrote:
I was in the Navy, and had a security clearance, AND was totally aware that the difference between me and the Secretary of State could fill the grand canyon.

I mean, she wasn't military, she wasn't under the UCMJ. She was a political presidential placed cabinet member. Essentially, a private contractor placed at the whims of the current administration, and at most she should be removed from the office by the President for a shotty job..guess what, she isn't Sec. of State anymore, so there, lucky day. The only reason she got a clearance is because well, El Presidente' has powers to say, boom, she's my guy, she gets it, and the senate goes, no problemo.

And do I believe she was a little clueless when dealing with sensitive information? Hell, yeah, she's the same age as my mom, and my mom still doesn't know that sharing my FB posts won't be seen by any of her friends because I didn't mark it public.

Old people and technology are pretty fucking clueless.

But seriously, people need to get over it. She isn't the little people, and she's not going to be held up to the same rules as some dumb ass squid at the bottom of the chain of command who signed away his rights for a measly monthly allowance and a bunk.


Bullshit. You don't think the Secretary or the Navy or Defense should know and be accountable for security information? Just because you are a civilian doesn't exempt you from the rules even if you are the top dog. She might not be held to the UCMJ but there are still laws about hos this information should be handled. I'm a civilian now I am am still expected to follow the rules when handling classified information. If I did 1/100 of the shit she did my clearance would be revoked and I would never be issued one again. We live in a Nation of law, you aren't exempt from laws because you are in a high ranking position. Go live in a Monarchy if you believe that shit.

Just because she is old doesn't excuse her from not knowing how to handle technology. Your mom isn't a senior level cabinet member. If Hillary is unable or unwilling to learn the technology to do her job then she shouldn't be fucking doing it.

This shit came down to one of two things, Hillary was incompetent or knowingly broke the law. Well the FBI cleared of the latter so it must be the former. You left has a cabinet member who unquestionably demonstrated she doesn't know how to handle technology or security information. That makes her unqualified to hold the highest rank of the land.

Part of being a leader is hiring the right people, she clearly hired the wrong people to manage her IT. The right people would have set up her system that complied with the law or told her no if that wasn't possible. Of course that assumes you naively believe she didn't do all this to deliberately circumvent the laws on handling and storing email, which she should have also been briefed on. If she can't pay attention to briefings on how to handle classified material and how to handle government emails you expect her to pay attention on briefings on how to handle nuclear weapons or foreign affairs?

Apologetic attitudes like yours are why our politicians are corrupt and get away with the shit they do.
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