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Tiny Epic Galaxies: Beyond the Black» Forums » General

Subject: Two rules I want to see in TeG:BtB rss

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Marcos Hidalgo
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First of all congratulations for the HUGE success of BtB... Incredible reception for just an expansion! As Scott Said in the comment section of the campaign, I'm putting this here.

About the game, new pilot rules seem pretty neat, you've fit in some PvP actions on the pilots that spices up the game... landing on other player's mat is possible (at last) to steal resources. Having pilots and exploration adds new ways to win the game not just harvesting planets, and that will mean new strategies and ways to win the game, more options, more replayability, more fun indeed!

Two things I wll expect from the expansion are the following:

See much more PVP You have ships with huge lasers and stuff... so I think PvP is a must have for this game, not just trying to get the planets faster but being able to engage in fast and furious battles... Mechanics? Now some pilots has some PvP features (Bandit and maybe Opportunist) but ship to ship confrontations could be great. I think the exploration board is the perfect place to engage in battles, double it as a battlefield and you get some more PvP. A sample rule for this: You can attack ships in the exploration board... use 1 energy dice to heavily damage a ship forcing it to go to it's home system (this can be seen as a favor to your opponent but you negate that ship to fight back using energy dices) and use 2 energy dices to effectively destroy the ship, the ship returns to its homeworld but you effectively kill the pilot (if present). Just an idea. Energy battle dices can be followed.

See some ways to counter the "Culture Engine" tactic Pilots could be an option with some specially focused habilities, but, what if you can establish a "blockade" landing one of your ships on an enemy homeworld? Blockaded players can't follow other players culture dices, becouse their homeworlds are engaged in fierce battles, bombardments and rushing weapon production.

Apart from that... something that could be really neat is having another contest just like in TeG for players to create new pilot habilities. I was one of the winners (think of me every time you orbit Umbra Forum)
 
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S. R.
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To be honest, I find both to be quite bad ideas, indeed.

PvP, while a common aspect of SciFi games, here means just one thing: it makes the game longer. If you could engage in PvP, with the examples you give, sending rockets back to their homeworld would mean a loss of momentum for the player that suffers through this. And, lets face it, IF PvP was included, it cannot take part ONLY at the exploration space. In fact, thematically speaking, this is the one location where it makes less sense.

But transporting it to the "fight over planets" means providing an alternative to the settle/invade track race that is a huge part of this game. And if you allowed it only for ships that landed ON a planet, sending opponents ships back to their galaxy would essentially do nothing to them, as the usefulness of the ships on the planet is already finished.

KILLING a ship is even worse. How do you get it back? You get new ships when you upgrade. Do you then HAVE to recruit a pilot, in order to gain a ship back? What if the ship you need to get back is the only one left, and you just do not get the right dice to get it back?

To get back to the less severe "sending ships back" - if that were an option, it would mean that players would look for this "easier way out", in regards to the colonizing race. So sending ships back becomes a common thing. Which makes the game so much longer. And that is something the game would not suffer well. It is great, even fantastic, for what it is, and has just the right length for a game where the aspect of chance is not insignificantly present. Drawing it out, the game would lose its luster pretty quickly. There are other games that fit this niche, and they would probably do a better job, then.

So, in regards to your first suggestion, PvP would make the game longer, at best, and would be able to kick players out of the race, at worst. Both nothing that would increase the quality of gameplay, here.

Regarding your second suggestion, I think it is simply foolish to include a mechanism in a game that blocks the ONE THING that sets this game apart, that makes it special in some way. The follow-up mechanism is what makes this game so engaging, and sets it apart from other yahtzee-style games with or without a fitting (or pasted-on) theme. Letting another player collect Culture to use this mechanism, which also makes the turns of OTHER PLAYERS that more interesting, as you look for opportunities to profit from them, and also have to be on the lookout so that others will not take advantage of something that will cost you too much momentum. Effectively handing players the opportunity to not only block of that engagement, but also to kill the (as you put it) "Culture Engine" means that the engine of the game becomes less profitable. Which means the focus of the game will shift.
And that not only changes the game, it also means that this one, unique feature (well, unique to yahtzee-style games of this "size") becomes maybe not useless, but loses a lot of weight.
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Daniel Barker
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I like the way the game is introducing some lore and story to TEG, fleshing out the plot and what's going on somewhat.

It states that galaxies have expanded as far as they can now people compete for fresh planets at the edge of the galaxy. Or words to that effect.

PvP would undo the story. It's right there, tension is building but people aren't fighting. Yet.

Pvp in a future second expansion if the story went that way? I'd be down. But not yet.
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Marcos Hidalgo
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Thank you for your comments, I see the point on both, but I think you got me somehow wrong in my propositions...

You can find some PvP right now, but mostly taking advantage of other players advances. The problems about not having some "real" PvP, in my opinion are:

- Thematically, you have starships and now fierce pilots out there, but they're actually happy good friends! For me, it is a little off-theme if there are no single rule to face off ships.

- Now you got various mechanics to get Victory Points, that is, Planets, Secret objectives, Secret weapons/satellites, Pilot Collecting and Exploration. Planets are the core system of the game, so you better not fiddle with them, being able to remove ships from there could be a game, stopper, and there are already colonies and pilots that affect ships orbiting. So, PvP could be focused in the other VP sources, Pilots/Exploration. I didn't said "destroying ships" but killing pilots, if you do so, you can sabotage (losing vital dices) enemy effort to aqquire pilots. That is just an idea, of course. Doing it on the Exploration board makes that "push your luck VP source" a dangerous place for pilots... Ships are never destroyed, becouse that is counter-core-rules, special pilot ship goes back to regular ship and returns home.

And about the Culture-Engine... What I suggest is that "blockades" only affect to following Culture dices (you can still follow the rest), <put here a background explanation>. That removes a mechanic that was taken as game-breaker and sometimes insta-win tactic... if the Culture-Engine is broken, something should be made... and spending one of your precious ships on blockades is enough payment to cancel the "Engine-culture" tactic to be exploited. Again, you don't destroy the rule, but create a counter, and you only cancel (again) the possibility to follow culture dices only.

Game could be a little longer... but actually, with the new BtB rules... plays will be a lot longer indeed.
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Christopher Corrigan
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unliar wrote:
First of all congratulations for the HUGE success of BtB... Incredible reception for just an expansion! As Scott Said in the comment section of the campaign, I'm putting this here.

About the game, new pilot rules seem pretty neat, you've fit in some PvP actions on the pilots that spices up the game... landing on other player's mat is possible (at last) to steal resources. Having pilots and exploration adds new ways to win the game not just harvesting planets, and that will mean new strategies and ways to win the game, more options, more replayability, more fun indeed!

Two things I wll expect from the expansion are the following:

See much more PVP You have ships with huge lasers and stuff... so I think PvP is a must have for this game, not just trying to get the planets faster but being able to engage in fast and furious battles... Mechanics? Now some pilots has some PvP features (Bandit and maybe Opportunist) but ship to ship confrontations could be great. I think the exploration board is the perfect place to engage in battles, double it as a battlefield and you get some more PvP. A sample rule for this: You can attack ships in the exploration board... use 1 energy dice to heavily damage a ship forcing it to go to it's home system (this can be seen as a favor to your opponent but you negate that ship to fight back using energy dices) and use 2 energy dices to effectively destroy the ship, the ship returns to its homeworld but you effectively kill the pilot (if present). Just an idea. Energy battle dices can be followed.

See some ways to counter the "Culture Engine" tactic Pilots could be an option with some specially focused habilities, but, what if you can establish a "blockade" landing one of your ships on an enemy homeworld? Blockaded players can't follow other players culture dices, becouse their homeworlds are engaged in fierce battles, bombardments and rushing weapon production.

Apart from that... something that could be really neat is having another contest just like in TeG for players to create new pilot habilities. I was one of the winners (think of me every time you orbit Umbra Forum)

So, Im guessing you want to play a different game altogether? You want to fight? I am thinking there might be a few space wars and conquest titles already afoot that are more to your taste?
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Marcos Hidalgo
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Krsnaji wrote:
So, Im guessing you want to play a different game altogether? You want to fight? I am thinking there might be a few space wars and conquest titles already afoot that are more to your taste?


That answer really can be held in front of absolutely any comment about any expansion of any game... but... doesn't really add anything to the point.

It's a little bit rude to say that I want TeG:BtB to be a totally different game. I played a lot of TI3 and Eclipse... and Leviathan, Battlespace, Interceptor and many other games. TeG has its own pace, timing and rules, but (again) there are two things in the game that could be improbed, first the Culture-Engine, if you played enough TeG, it is a metarule that you MUST use almost all games, for many people is a combo that breaks the game, so why not updating the rules to be able for players to counter that effect?

Before, there were times where there is no culture planet available or you absolutely don't want to land on a barely usefull culture planet, but now you can get 1 culture for every ship on the exploration board, which will make even easier to benefit from the culture engine tactic.

And about the PvP, I just say that it is a little off-theme to have so very little PvP possibilities. If you go to the game presentation text:

Quote:
Your galaxies have expanded to the extent of known space. You overlap with your rivals and fight tooth and nail for fertile planets. Now it is time to extend the horizons.


Where is in the game that tooth and nail fightings? well, nowhere, again you have ships but the new mechanics, pilots and exploration, are just another way to get VPs, not a source of interaction of any kind.

Anyway, that is my opinion, you may suport it or hate it. Both are ok for me
 
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Peter Ellis
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PVP does exist in TEG, in the planetary powers. There are planets that let you move an opponent back on the track, or move an opponent off a planet, or out of an orbit.

The trouble is that you can't win the game just by hindering your opponent. In TEG you gain points by exploring, conquering, and advancing your economy. PVP does not give you points, therefore any PVP is a defensive action. There are times when defensive actions are useful, but typically you are better off spending your dice on advancing yourself rather than defensively slowing down your opponent.

Similarly there are currently planetary powers in TEG that limit following (either preventing following, or increasing the cost of following). But again you need to spend dice defensively hindering your opponent instead of advancing yourself.

Another problem with defensive action is that it slows the game down. You spend your turn undoing what your opponent spent last turn doing - you just added another round to the game.

I don't see the fun in that.



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Marcos Hidalgo
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MavWeirdo wrote:
The trouble is that you can't win the game just by hindering your opponent.


It seems that exploration an pilots now changes this. With both you can earn a lot of victory points, enough to win the game even if you go 5 or more points behind your opponent.

There are 7VPs hidden on the exploration chits (stretch goals will unlease some more) and you can use the exploration/pilot badges to win up to another 8 VPs. Which means you can earn at the end 15VPs if you excel at pilot hiring and exploration even ignoring the plates at all...

So, you got two new Mechanics that will give you as much points as planets (taking into account that probably 5 or 8 VPs will be granted from your empire size).

Take a few seconds and do the math, two new mechanics that are only a solo race that will probably rely on luck (pray for a suitable pilot or exploration cheat that will never show) WITHOUT any means to counter your enemies.
Isn't that enough to totally justify PvP rules habilities? Think again, two new mechanics that can potentially grant as many VPs as the core mechanics of the game with no way to counter them once aqcuired.

MavWeirdo wrote:
Similarly there are currently planetary powers in TEG that limit following (either preventing following, or increasing the cost of following). But again you need to spend dice defensively hindering your opponent instead of advancing yourself.


The only planet that can somehow counter the "Culture-Engine" is the one that states "Enemies must pay 2 culture per follow this turn" and you should land a ship or conquer the planet and spend a colony dice... Culture-Engine is a side effect not really expected from the game, and yet only one planet in all basic game and expansion somehow counters it making (again) that mechanic a must play almost 90% of the games... and that is senseless for me. If you have something you MUST do to win without any means of countering it, there is a problem there.

Exploration board makes culture available for anyone at any time... and you will probably have a ship there always since your first or second ship movement in the game. Anyway, it is shocking that you are against the Culture-Engine in another post and yet disagree with me here.

MavWeirdo wrote:
Another problem with defensive action is that it slows the game down. You spend your turn undoing what your opponent spent last turn doing - you just added another round to the game. I don't see the fun in that.


I disagree, pilots and exploration brings 15 possible VPs onto the game. That will surely slow the game as players will be asking for total symbols on pilots and token and taking that into account. Countering other players hability to get the pole positon on any of the four badges will take a major role on TEG games, playing with drones, satellites and superweapons add (for sure) more rounds to it.
I can totally see the fun on it, and you are able to choose not to play with Beyond the Black, or superweapons at all and stick to TEG if you go for faster games... but the fact is that BtB is there, with his rules and the addition of relevant weighty VPs to be taken, and it is dangerous to drop all that possibilities without any means to counter them. Try to figure out.


 
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Raithyn
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unliar wrote:
Culture-Engine is a side effect not really expected from the game, and yet only one planet in all basic game and expansion somehow counters it


I'm with Krsnaji. You're simply playing the wrong game for your tastes. TEG is designed around the culture engine. If you've played TEG before, there's really no excuse for thinking it's somehow a "side effect," whatever that is supposed to mean. Contrary to your dismissive reply to him, the most constructive thing you can be told right now is that you shouldn't put more money into expansions for TEG expecting it to become something it's not.
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Marcos Hidalgo
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As said, I'm not playing the wrong game... I backed-played-and really enjoyed TeG. I will not talk anymore about the Culture Engine here, TeG is based on Culture resource and Energy resource and following actions is a base, core and much needed mechanic, but saying that "TEG is designed around Culture Engine" is straight false. I imagine you've been around here in all the discussions about the Culture Engine, so nothing more to say about it (and inf not, there are plenty of TeG forum).

I'm not being dismissive and I'm really sorry if it looked like that. And I think your words are dismissive, re-read your message and try to find something usefull on in about the theme of this post instead of implying that I don't like TeG, that I don't like BtB and that I don't know what I'm writing "whatever that is supposed to mean"... I'm not native on english but spanish. If it is so hard for you to get the right meaning of what I'm writing... It's ok, we can switch to spanish any time you like

"the most constructive thing I can be told right now " is that all that I need to say is said. As Peter Ellis states in his post, now Culture Engine is a game changer, and... am I really the only one that sees a problem in 15 floating victory points that has no counter apart from rushing them before others?

Ah! The most constructive thing I can do right now is to unsubscribe from this post as I'm being tired of deconstructive replies... soblue
 
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