$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 95

6,107 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
38.5% of Goal | 26 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
34 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Sentinels of the Multiverse» Forums » Variants

Subject: Custom Hero - GREEN ARROW (with card art) rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Okay, just for fun, my kids absolutely love Green Arrow (and, for the record, they loved him since long before the TV show Arrow came out). So I put together this deck for them, using art from the incomparable Bruce Timm and his studio. So again, I have no rights to this art or to this character -- I'm just doing this as a tribute to a beloved character for my beloved children (so please, Bruce, don't sue me or anything).

Anyway, there are two of each of the Arrow cards and then one of each of the other cards in the deck. It does play like you're playing his personality, and that's what we were looking for...






































Enjoy...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Meltzer
United States
Dover
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Eight ball, corner pocket
mbmbmbmbmb
Really neat idea! Couple of questions/comments:

1. What exactly is a mechanical non-hero card (definition)?
2. It seems that Charm could theoretically keep getting recycled every round if it is the last card in the deck.
3. The card where all damage is reduced and GA may deal himself 1 damage to destroy it...wouldn't that mean that he deals himself 0 damage (because all damage is reduced) to destroy the card? Maybe the damage he deals himself should be irreducible, or "If GA takes damage this way, then destroy the card"?

I like the teaming up aspect, and the different arrows.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Trevor Schadt
United States
Glenshaw
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Some great ideas here, and an interesting differentiation from Parse. Some clarifications/questions, though:

Feedback Arrow: What is a "mechanical non-hero card?" "Mechanical" is not a standard keyword. Did you perhaps mean Device cards? Or is this a player determination of whether any particular card qualifies as "mechanical" or not?

Team-Ups: Are these cards meant to be Ongoings? If so, they should have that keyword.

On the Fly: There are a couple of problems with this card.

1) "Until the start of your next turn, all damage by all targets is reduced by 1. Green Arrow may deal himself 1 psychic damage to destroy this card." Wouldn't that 1 damage be reduced to 0 by the effect of the card?

2) It doesn't have any of the standard duration keywords (One-Shot, Ongoing, Equipment). If this is supposed to be an Ongoing, the wording should be changed to something like "All damage by all targets is reduced by 1. Green Arrow may deal himself 1 psychic damage at any time to destroy this card. Destroy this card at the start of your next turn." (If you want to solve both these problems, add "irreducible" to the damage GA deals himself.)

Various cards: You have a few cards that instruct the player to "play cards" or "draw cards." These should really be prefaced by "You may" to match precedent, and because there are situations where you may not want to do these things.

EDIT: ninja!!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Man, both of you guys hit the same issues at the same time! Way to go...

Yes, we could change "Mechanical" to "Device" (we did it so that even if you were just playing against, say, Omnitron, pretty much everything that he'd do that turn would be null and void). But in keeping with the consistency of the game, we could change it.

And yes, those should all be "Ongoing" cards. Again, we thought it was implicit, but we should really make that explicit.

And though it's statistically unlikely that it would come back every turn, yes, we wanted Charm to keep popping back up. It's only a small buff for people...

As for On the Fly, we wanted the "Targeting" cards to be essentially "Ongoing," but we wanted there to be a way to get rid of On the Fly if you wanted to get rid of it. Maybe the best way to do it would be simply to say, "All damage by all targets is reduced by 1. Green Arrow may deal himself 1 irreducible psychic damage at any time to destroy this card."

So let's try out the amendations...











Better?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe this isn't meant to be the most serious deck, but it can be tweaked to fit the game just fine. To help with that, here's my observations....

Countdown Arrow, Feedback Arrow, Net Arrow ought to be Ongoing.

Feedback Arrow might just specify Devices.

Smoke Arrow should say "The next time a villain card would be played, you may play a card instead."

Barrage should probably be stronger with fewer players, right? I mean, it shouldn't scale at all, but if you make it stronger when tye team is stronger, that's a double imbalance. Try: "up to 7 minus (H) Arrow cards" and it'll be stronger with fewer players.

Does Determination's effect ever expire? Also, this is an interesting effect; it'll stop villain and environment cards from reducing Green Arrow's damage output, but it also means he loses the bonus from Obsidian Fields (in which case you just wouldn't play it). Perhaps just making the damage irreducible, until his next turn, is clearer and more likely to be played ... albeit less unique.

Call For Back-Up is a bit weird. Does it allow you to play the 2 cards or just let them both be in play? Either way, it doesn't stop one from destroying the other. Try either:

o Power: Destroy any Team-Up cards in play. Team-Up cards are indestructible until the end of this turn. You may play up to 2 Team-Up cards. If you play 2 Team-Up cards this way, destroy this card.

o (non-Power) If less than 3 Team-Up cards are in play, hero cards cannot destroy them.

Black Canary and Green Lantern lack timing for their damage to occur.

I think Speedy says "or" where you meant "on".

Are Team-Up cards meant to be nearly indestructible to villain and environment cards? Ongoing & Equipment destruction cannot hit them, they are not targets. An order to destroy a non-character card, however, can hit them.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Okay, the new version of On The Fly doesn't quite work. It is an Ongoing effect that lasts until your next turn, but is never re-applied.

I don't like letting the destruction clause occur at any time -- literally no published card acts like this. Also, why would it hurt Green Arrow to stop being on the fly?

Why not just:

Reduce all damage dealt by 1.

At the start of your turn, you may destroy this card.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Countdown Arrow, Feedback Arrow, Net Arrow ought to be Ongoing.

Interesting. Lemme chew on that.

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Feedback Arrow might just specify Devices.

It does now (see above).

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Smoke Arrow should say "The next time a villain card would be played, you may play a card instead."

Again, lemme chew on that wording. The idea was that Green Arrow could play cards during the Villain play phase, and the villain could not -- but there are some instances with villains when they may play more than one card during their play phase, and we didn't want to make it that only that first card would be affected. Maybe we could say, "Until the start of your next turn, whenever a villain card would be played, you may play a card instead," but that could potentially be too strong...

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Barrage should probably be stronger with fewer players, right? I mean, it shouldn't scale at all, but if you make it stronger when tye team is stronger, that's a double imbalance. Try: "up to 7 minus (H) Arrow cards" and it'll be stronger with fewer players.

Intriguing...

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Does Determination's effect ever expire? Also, this is an interesting effect; it'll stop villain and environment cards from reducing Green Arrow's damage output, but it also means he loses the bonus from Obsidian Fields (in which case you just wouldn't play it). Perhaps just making the damage irreducible, until his next turn, is clearer and more likely to be played ... albeit less unique.

Good call. How about this?



FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Call For Back-Up is a bit weird. Does it allow you to play the 2 cards or just let them both be in play? Either way, it doesn't stop one from destroying the other. Try either:

o Power: Destroy any Team-Up cards in play. Team-Up cards are indestructible until the end of this turn. You may play up to 2 Team-Up cards. If you play 2 Team-Up cards this way, destroy this card.

o (non-Power) If less than 3 Team-Up cards are in play, hero cards cannot destroy them.

Thank you! I was wondering how to clarify that wording...




FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Black Canary and Green Lantern lack timing for their damage to occur.

I was thinking that we should change that to "At the end of your turn..." How does that grab y'all?

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I think Speedy says "or" where you meant "on".

I'm not sure to what card you are referring here.

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Are Team-Up cards meant to be nearly indestructible to villain and environment cards? Ongoing & Equipment destruction cannot hit them, they are not targets. An order to destroy a non-character card, however, can hit them.

Since they've been re-edited to be "Ongoing" cards, I think that helps to solve the issue here.

Great ideas, people! Thank you so much for your feedback!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
RevKev2000 wrote:
How about this?



Better. =)

RevKev2000 wrote:

FlatOnHisFace wrote:

o Power: Destroy any Team-Up cards in play. Team-Up cards are indestructible until the end of this turn. You may play up to 2 Team-Up cards. If you play 2 Team-Up cards this way, destroy this card.play, hero cards cannot destroy them.

Thank you! I was wondering how to clarify that wording...



The problem with not destroying the in-play Team-Ups at the start of the power use is that, if you already had 1-2 in play, now you get to add 2 more.

RevKev2000 wrote:

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Black Canary and Green Lantern lack timing for their damage to occur.

I was thinking that we should change that to "At the end of your turn..." How does that grab y'all?

Works.

RevKev2000 wrote:

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I think Speedy says "or" where you meant "on".

I'm not sure to what card you are referring here.

The Team-Up card called "Speedy".

RevKev2000 wrote:

FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Are Team-Up cards meant to be nearly indestructible to villain and environment cards? Ongoing & Equipment destruction cannot hit them, they are not targets. An order to destroy a non-character card, however, can hit them.

Since they've been re-edited to be "Ongoing" cards, I think that helps to solve the issue here.

That'll do. =)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alex Klein
United States
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Net Arrow and Smoke Arrow are very strong and need downsides or weaker effects. Flash Forward has no net effect. Point-Blank should be only +1, and it might be a bad idea to have two Ongoings that increase damage dealt. Speedy is probably too strong.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Brown
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
One thing that I'd suggest: 30 different cards seems like a lot, especially when a couple of them feel like duplicates of similar effects. Most Sentinels heroes have between 12-16 cards, each card having 2-4 copies. Some of the more extreme cases (such as Argent Adept) provide varying toolboxing options to make recruiting specific cards for the setup, which makes limiting to one easier.

As an example: Imagine trying to get the specific instrument for AA if you didn't have the combinations of Arcane Cadence, Instrumental Conjuration, and/or Vernal Sonata to recycle cards that have been destroyed (each of which are at 4 in his deck). Because of those, the rest of his deck can be at 1-2 copies each and still have a fairly solid flow to them.

In particular, one-shots and ongoings should have multiple copies (at least 2), because they should act as the core of setting up some of the more unique cards in the setup (such as the arrows and teamups)

I'll give a deeper dive and provide some more thorough suggestions this weekend. Looks cool!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Hunter
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Looks very cool, love the teamups especially. It really does feel like the way Green Arrow would play, flinging lots of weird arrows and goofy one-liners. I'd echo Rob's point that it does seem like a lot of individual cards, might be prudent to have multiple copies of some.

Barrage:
Not sure this quite works - you can play X extra arrows, but it's a power so your play phase has already passed and I think you technically can't use it. Maybe it is was just "Play X arrows cards"? I'd agree it probably doesn't need the H on here, heroes intrinsically scale by number. Regarding card number, this seems like a pretty core ability that should be 3-4 of?

Flash Forward: As said before, is slightly pointless at the moment (although I love the art), possibly could be cut to have more copies of the other cards?

Point Blank: Seems pretty crazy - no one else gets a +2 damage ongoing and on someone who can potentially deal multiple individual attacks in one turn... Maybe if it also increased damage to him by 1 so it's at least risky in the vein of Hunter and Hunted?

Smoke arrow and Net arrow also seem extremely strong - Take down (which is already way too good) only without the self damage and with an extra play, and Hypersonic assault (which is already way too good) plus it can hit targets who have damage reduction. Add to this the fact he had pretty good card searching (Got a plan) and trash return (Flash-back) and Smoke arrow could be locking down the villain for 3+ turns straight, which would be unfun.

Off the top of my head, Smoke arrow could be reduce damage to hero targets by 1, Net arrow could be an Adhesive Foam grenade rip off?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Great thoughts all, as always. Thank you, guys!

Here are some tweaks (mostly using verbiage from other "official" Sentinels cards) that at least try to work toward correcting some of these issues. Yes, I see that Barrage is still problematic in terms of timing, etc., but I'll have to chat more with my kids for more substantial changes to the deck...







1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Stull
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not clear when the team-up cards activate except for Speedy and Flash. Do Canary and Green Lantern activate their damage upon coming into play or are they supposed to deal damage at the end of a turn or start of a turn? For the Question does again does the card reveal only occur when it is played or is it meant to trigger more than that?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Sonvar wrote:
It's not clear when the team-up cards activate except for Speedy and Flash.


That's right -- I knew that there was another tweak that I needed to make!



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Stull
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, I'm surprised one of your team-up cards isn't Batman. Seems like he would make more sense than the Question
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Hunter
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Some more thoughts...

The delayed effect on Countdown Arrow seems a bit pointless - in most cases you're hitting a villain target, and whether you hit it now or at the start of it's turn doesn't make a HUGE difference, either way it's dead before it has a chance to fire back. Maybe if you had it trigger at the start of your turn and bumped the damage up to 4-5 it would feel more different to the other arrows, more damage but a potentially troublesome delay that lets the enemy get another shot in?

Flash-Forward is still quite anaemic - now you profit a power BUT given his deck composition he's very very unlikely to have a second power to use. In gameplay I imagine that outside the very unlikely combination of cards where this does something I'd just throw it away to draw a new card that might potentially do something every time. I like the art, but it seems like a card that could be pretty easily taken out.

Feedback arrow is super narrow, hardly any Villains use Devices so this will be a dead draw a lot of the time. Off the top of my head, maybe this should be Ongoing destroyer and Buzzsaw arrow should be Environment destroyer?

Call for backup is strong, but still a bit narrow. Imagine Green Arrow gets access to about 12 cards in the game (6ish turn game, including his power occasionally getting him extra ones). There are only 5 team-ups in the deck, so it's entirely probably he will just not get 2 in his hand, and if he only has 1 (or none, for that matter) Call for Backup is pointless. Maybe if it were just a search for a teamup card in the style of Meditation or Displaced Armory? The teamups are probably the coolest part of the deck IMO, so you wanna make sure he has access to them reliably.




More generally, I would say that the deck probably has a few too many individual cards, and a few sort of filler cards like Flash Forward and clusters of quite similar but slightly different cards (Charm/TLC, or Net arrow/Smoke arrow/Impact arrow, or Gritty Intensity/Point Blank) which are playing in the same space with fairly minor differences. In some cases it seems cards have kind of awkward designs just to make things a bit different to other things - why not just have two copies of the clean, good card instead of one clean good card and one slightly awkward knock off?

Focus on what makes the character cool and play that up, every random card that could go in any deck is just making the player more likely to play your coolest, most thematic cards.

Don't mean to be too critical, I really really like the idea for this deck, but I feel what makes it great isn't quite front and center at the moment.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Adelphophage wrote:
Don't mean to be too critical...

Don't worry about it -- I don't take any of this as being critical so much as simply helpfully critiquing. If people invest much of their egos in home-made Sentinels decks... well... they probably need to get out more...

Adelphophage wrote:
The delayed effect on Countdown Arrow seems a bit pointless...

Actually, I thought that my daughter had a clever idea with that one. No, most of the time, it's not going to be much different from any other arrow. But every once in a while, there's a Villain card that says, "Heroes cannot deal damage this turn," and that's where the arrow would be helpful, since you can fire it this turn, but it won't deal damage until the very beginning of the next turn (before that Villain's effect would potentially kick in again). At least, that was the theory, and I liked the idea.

Adelphophage wrote:
Feedback arrow is super narrow, hardly any Villains use Devices so this will be a dead draw a lot of the time.

Which is why we'll probably end up sticking with the original "yes-it's-a-little-vague-and-not-the-normal-Sentinels-wording-but-anything-arguably-mechanical-won't-work" phraseology in our household. But then again, your "Ongoing destroyer" idea is growing on me as a more traditional and elegant solution.

Adelphophage wrote:
Call for Backup is pointless. Maybe if it were just a search for a teamup card in the style of Meditation or Displaced Armory?

Now that there is an idea. I'm liking that idea...


Adelphophage wrote:
Flash-Forward is still quite anaemic... it seems like a card that could be pretty easily taken out.

That's the beauty of tossing these out there for you guys -- if people like X and Y cards, but not Z, then they could just print out those and use 'em. We liked the variety as something totally different than a usual deck, but if people (understandably) see some as less interesting / less helpful, then I'd encourage them not to make use of them. I'm kinda wondering about the concept of the Flash-Forward myself (so if anyone might have any other ideas that might work thematically with that...?). Maybe we could just mirror the Flash-Back card more directly like this:


Sonvar wrote:
I'm surprised one of your team-up cards isn't Batman. Seems like he would make more sense than the Question

I hear ya -- and maybe that would be a good additional Team-Up to try (we'll make some promo cards sometime from the old Brave and the Bold days). In the same way, Green Arrow teams up with Supergirl in a couple of JLU episodes, too. But we were trying to reflect the feel of the comic books, and the people whom he teamed up with the most in the comics were Black Canary, Green Lantern (Hal), Speedy, and The Question.

Of course, now I'm thinking about how we could work in a Batman Team-Up, so, y'know, thanks for the extra work... cry


But as a shout-out to a buddy of mine, here's a promo version that incorporates art from the CW shows...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I can throw some support behind Flash Forward. A card that is merely:

Draw a card. Play a card.

won't often matter much. But it is completely harmless to a deck. You simply replace it with the next card from the top of your deck before deciding what to play from your hand. It differs from being non-existent in two ways. One's thematic; one's mechanical.

To capture the personality of a spontaneous character, the effect of Flash Forward works really well. You can't perfectly plan your turn in advance because you don't know what you'll draw; you don't know exactly what you have to choose from during your turn until your turn starts.

This is different from introducing an outside form of randomness (i.e.: "Reveal 3 cards from the top of your deck. Deal X damage = to the number of Constructs revealed x2;" or "Roll a die....") Since the randomness is entirely part of how the cards were shuffled amongst the deck, the purest of fans cannot complain about adding a layer of randomness to a card game which already has an element of randomness determined by the card order.

Functionally, there's merit to "Draw a card, play a card." This is all the best stuff from Reset without the worst part of Reset. It plays better in Omnitron-X's deck, because that hero tends to play randomly from the top-of-deck via Timeshift on itself more than any other individual hero deck. The mechanical importance is that, instead of playing a random card from the top, the player draws the card from the top and can now play any card from hand, be it that one or one already held. But even without a random play in Green Arrow's deck, Flash Forward may still be played by The Ennead (or other villain deck), Atlantis (or other environment deck), or Omnitron-X (or other hero deck). Being able to turn a random play into a deliberate play is a strong more, when it works, and so few heroes can do it. The Sentinels, Tachyon, the Wraith, and the Nudist can.

Reset causes a reshuffle of trash into deck between those two commands. You'd always want to play a Reset, because otherwise you won't know if your next play is the best you can do without drawing first. This more-often-than-should might lead to playing another Reset, only to have the added effect of shuffling the previous Reset (the only card now in the trash) into the deck to resolve the current Reset. Then you need to give a reasonable amount of shuffling just to allow that Reset to be somewhere near the top, middle, or bottom of the deck, or you aren't really randomizing the order. Omnitron-X's Reset mixes all the old Components and Platings into the deck, where Technological Advancement can find them, so there's some rationality behind that hero doing it, but it just makes one wonder if we couldn't save a whole lotta time by allowing Technological Advancement to pull cards from the trash. Another Reset won't be far behind anyway. So was that really necessary to get players to accept Reset, even though it would've been better if it functioned exactly like Flash Forward?

And there's more to it than just this. With Megalopolis' Traffic Pile-Up (players cannot draw), this is not an invisible card. It limits what Green Arrow can do now, but once the traffic clears up, Green Arrow goes back to normal pace. Omnitron's Interpolation Beam would cause Green Arrow to take 1 damage for drawing using Flash Forward now, or he can wait to draw. It plays differently with different decks and that's what you want from a modular game.



Argent Adept: "Guys, I can let someone play a card now. We need to take out that Mongolian Death Worm [Final Wasteland] before the environment turn. I have no environment destruction right now."

Tempest: "I'm holding a Lightning Slash (5 damage) and can do 1 and 1 damage during my turn. If we can throw 2 more damage at it, we can kill it before it hits us, hides, and comes back at full HP soon after."

Tachyon: "My turn already passed, but I drew a card that'll let me hit a few targets for 3 each. It's a tad bit of overkill, and the longer I save it, the more targets it'll hit."

Green Arrow: "I have a Boxing Glove Arrow. That's exactly the 2 damage we need and Tachyon can save her card. We'll get more from her play, but I can do it."

Argent Adept: "That's good, but to waste a Lightning Slash on an environment card is such a ... a waste. Have we no environment destruction? Nothing else in this environment is necessary to remove with outright destruction and all the other targets are weaker and give us more time to work with."

Green Arrow: "I'm holding a Flash Forward. There's a chance I can draw a Buzzsaw Arrow. If I don't, I can default to Boxing Glove and Tempest finishes with the Lightning Slash."

Tachyon: "Sounds like we have a plan."

You won't get that tension by removing Flash Forward. Useless? I say otherwise.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
I can throw some support behind Flash Forward... Useless? I say otherwise.

Eloquent, and very well-considered. We had primarily considered that it could be used to bring at least one more card out in a given turn, with the possibility that the card might really be helpful, but I hadn't articulated it as clearly, fully, or intelligently as you have here.

Maybe I'll leave it the way it is, rather than keep monkeying around with it. I'll pass it by my co-creators in my family.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Okay, two ideas for this Batman Team-Up card (focusing on a combat angle, since The Question is doing more of the detective work). The more I think about 'em, the more I like elements of both of these...




Oh, and as a silly bonus, here's a card that I'd never put into the deck, but it's fun to think about...

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seamus Butler
Ireland
flag msg tools
I haven't fully read the deck yet but can I put a vote in for the specailised arrows?

Thematically they work for GA as he didn't use every arrow every issue/episode, some did show up more often than others but, I believe they quote is "and Dinah said a boxing glove arrow was just decadent."

So if a card isn't useful against every deck it doesn't matter too much and if you pull it in a deck where it's not useful well it's still always good to have some discard fodder in your hand for when you need that too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Hunter
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Regarding Flash-Forward, I still remain unconvinced... In most cases it's just "This is going to be the next card in your deck, that you would have drawn anyway if you hadn't drawn Flash-Forward instead". Your example with trying to destroy the Mongolian Death Worm does make it mean something, but that only applies in the relatively narrow case when you drew the Flash Forward at the end of the previous turn and haven't had a chance to use it yet, which isn't going to be that likely.

I'm just concerned that whenever you have the Flash-Forward card in your hand the best option is always to play it immediately, that way it gets you a new card that might give you options you don't otherwise have, it's only ever going to exist between your draw and the start of your next turn. In your example, if you'd used it the previous turn, you'd then either have the Buzzsaw arrow, or know that you don't have the buzzsaw arrow, so there's no need to take the risk.

Thematically I suppose it makes sense in that it gives you a little bit of uncertainty for the team in that you don't know what the card is till your turn comes around again, but "he's a bit more random in a slightly annoying way" isn't a big seller, and I'd be loathe to use a card slot in a deck already overfull with good ideas.

I would argue that the closest comparisons are Reset and Eyes on the Prize, but in both cases the point of those cards is not really the draw/play, it's to do a little tiny effect (shuffle in to maybe help with Technological Advancement or 1 damage)that you would normally never waste your play on - but in this case it's worth it because it's effectively "Free", not wasting either your finite plays or cards. Eyes on the Prize is worth saving up for, but I know that myself whenever I get Reset I generally play it right away to get more options rather than hang onto it for some hypothetical situation where it might be slightly useful.

There is some mechanical relevance to being able to turn play the top card of your deck into play whatever card is in your hand, but it's really uncommon - in my opinion (and yours may vary). Be generous and say 10% of games contain an effect that can play the top card of a deck (Set, Atlantis, Enclave, Realm of Discord, Omnitron, Scholar by my count) on top of that bear in mind it only works if ther top card is this one Flash-Forward (2.5% of the time), it's not happening often enough to justify the card. There's an important difference between a card you can hoard in your hand for the perfect situation that may or may not come about, and a card that only does something important when it's randomly chosen in an unlikely event you have no way of controlling. Indeed, when I draw the Flash-Forward I'm thinking "Damn, now it's in my hand, so the one situation in which it might be useful can't happen" - kind of a feel bad moment. A deck has a limited number of card slots available on - I'd much rather have a sexy card like Acid arrow or Barrage or Call for Backup that reinforces what is cool about the deck.

For narrowness I'd argue it's even more problematic than the (terribly designed) Brain Burn. Brain burn in most games is "You can hurt yourself really badly to do this thing there's no point doing", but at least Brain Burn against the 10% of villains it matters against does something splashy (if in some cases a bit overpowered). This does nothing the vast majority of the time, and even now and then, if the stars align, does something a bit underwhelming.




Being constructive, if it is desired to keep the draw/play effect, at least make it do something a bit useful (like Reset/Eyes on the Prize) to give you a bit of a smile instead of just rolling your eyes and getting your next card. Maybe search your deck for an arrow and put it on top of the deck? Maybe "You may use your innate power twice this turn, but skip your power phase next turn?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Hunter
New Zealand
flag msg tools
Faceontoast wrote:
I haven't fully read the deck yet but can I put a vote in for the specailised arrows?

Thematically they work for GA as he didn't use every arrow every issue/episode, some did show up more often than others but, I believe they quote is "and Dinah said a boxing glove arrow was just decadent."

So if a card isn't useful against every deck it doesn't matter too much and if you pull it in a deck where it's not useful well it's still always good to have some discard fodder in your hand for when you need that too.


In its current form Feedback arrow is really, really narrow. In my opinion it's fine that some cards are better against some bosses, but most of them are just inefficient (one of these days I'll Wrathful Gaze down Spite, use Tempest's base power against the Dreamer or keep a Mechanical Golem alive for two straight turns against Progeny...) as opposed to straight up doing nothing. Feedback arrow also walks the edge where it does nothing against 19/24 official villains, is interesting against 3 (Deadline, Voss, Blade), is really really good against one (Ambuscade, who sucks enough as is) and is outlandishly broken against one more (Omnitron, who is a Device himself along with heaps of his cards). Just one man's opinion, but it's always a feel bad, unfun moment in a game when your draw for the turn (which normally brings hope and new options) is basically nothing.

Once again, don't mean to be super critical, but it seems like there are a few cards in the deck that don't need to be in it/as they are to maximize fun gameplay. Of course, this is without any playtesting, so plenty of grains of salt on that opinion.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennison Milenkaya
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
... and against any team of Vengeance-style villains.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Wright
msg tools
mb
Faceontoast wrote:
I believe they quote is "and Dinah said a boxing glove arrow was just decadent."

Actually, in the JLU episode referenced, Killer Frost freezes Green Arrow in a block of ice, but he uses the Buzzsaw Arrow to cut himself out, looks at it, and says, "And Black Canary said that a Buzzsaw Arrow was self-indulgent..." Though maybe you're thinking of a similar quote in a comic book somewhere about the classic Boxing Glove Arrow as well...

Adelphophage wrote:
Regarding Flash-Forward, I still remain unconvinced...

To be fair, I remain unconvinced as well. Having said that, I should probably toss two quick things in here, since this seems to have generated some good discussion and I've been thinking about it too.

First off, doesn't it at least get an additional card into the round for Green Arrow to choose from? I mean, that may not be much, but then again it might. So it's not a total non-effect, because you don't normally get to draw a card during your Play phase -- that's usually only at the end of your turn. But maybe I'm missing something there.

Secondly, the wording is currently the same as Vanish's Blink card, so there is some in-game precedent for it.

Adelphophage wrote:
In its current form Feedback arrow is really, really narrow.

Yep. I totally agree. I'll quote myself from earlier in the thread (ooooo... quote-ception...)--
RevKev2000 wrote:
Which is why we'll probably end up sticking with the original "yes-it's-a-little-vague-and-not-the-normal-Sentinels-wording-but-anything-arguably-mechanical-won't-work" phraseology in our household. But then again, your "Ongoing destroyer" idea is growing on me as a more traditional and elegant solution.


Alskandar19 wrote:
Speedy is probably too strong.

Do you guys think that this tweaking would improve that, or should I keep it the original way?

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.