$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 54.01

3,968 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
25% of Goal | 30 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
3 
 Thumb up
 Hide
8 Posts

Panzer (second edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Knowledge of optimal AP ranges rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Brian Scott
United States
Randolph
New Jersey
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

As has been discussed in numerous places before, an important part of achieving success in tank-on-tank combat in Panzer and in MBT is to try to engage at a range that is optimal in terms of the penetration of your weapons versus the enemy's armor and the penetration of his weapons versus your own armor. As players we have complete knowledge of this by examining the data cards (though the level of certainly here is mitigated to an extent by the variable penetration optional rule, which I always use).

Thinking about this got me wondering about how much actual tank commanders and crews in WWII knew about what their optimal ranges were against known types of enemy tanks. To use a specific match-up that was mentioned in another thread a while back, when a German StuG IIIG commander met T-34's did he think, "Well, I know they have to get pretty close to kill me so I'll try to keep the range open", or did he say "OK, at 800 to 1000 meters I can pick them off all day and be safe so I'll try to get there"? (Note that I'm not sure if 800 to 1000 meters is the actual optimal range in this case or not, but I suspect it's not too far off from reality.)

I was hoping some people who have more detailed knowledge of WWII tank combat (maybe first-hand accounts especially) might be able to comment on this.
2 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris McDonald
United States
Louisville
Colorado
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It probably varied a lot, but I would guess it was closer to the vague guess side of things in most cases. Of course in cases where vehicles were encountered for the first time (T-34s and KV-1s during Barbarossa), tank commanders had no idea.

I found this paper on American TDs in WWII, some pretty interesting stuff there:

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/gabel...

e.g. on pp. 52-53, he describes how, due to flawed ordnance tests, the Americans believed their TDs would be able to penetrate Tigers with their TD weapons at 2000 yards. But in fact they were unable to do so except at point blank range (until the M36 came along). It also describes the specific target points on the Panther that the weaker TDs had to aim for.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dean Brown
United States
Spring City
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I am reading Panzer Destroyer: Memoirs of a Red Army Tank Commander https://www.amazon.com/Panzer-Destroyer-Memoirs-Army-Command.... The author mentioned several times the optimal range to take out a variety of different German tanks with his self-propelled artillery weapon.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nadir Elfarra
United States
Pasadena
California
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
It's physics, so they had an intent when designing their vehicles (range of X, pen of y, armor of z) and a set of assumptions about the enemy's characteristics, so I'd guess their training included such proposed engagement parameters.
1 
 Thumb up
0.01
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
dave Prasse
United States
Fort Mill
South Carolina
flag msg tools
mb
I'd say the weapons charts are the "Theoretical" values designed into the weapons and armor and the die rolls represent "Reality" happening ...

As much as I love the AH game , Tobruk , the damage results are very specific , " theoretically " , they are almost too precise for " reality" ...

For me , 88 fits nicely between the theoretical Tobruk system and the design for effect of ASL ...

dP
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fernando Sola Ramos
Spain
Pilar de la Horadada
Alicante
flag msg tools
The Panzer Pusher gives you prestige!
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
bnscott wrote:

Thinking about this got me wondering about how much actual tank commanders and crews in WWII knew about what their optimal ranges were against known types of enemy tanks.


As each nation captured enemy vehicles, tests were made to gather that information. As soon as data was knowkn it was issued to units, so commanders could use it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Roger Hobden
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
The prevalence of certain tank types in specific geographic areas was another educated guess.

The Allies believed that encounters with Panther tanks on the battlefields in France would be "rare", but the Normandy campaign taught them otherwise as they rapidly started to receive daily reports of Sherman shells bouncing harmlessly on enemy tanks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron Day
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This is an image from a Tiger training manual. In the upper left corner, are a series of graphics which show the areas where the Tiger is vulnerable to that tank (the green ellipses) and the distances that the Tiger can take it out. [The triangles are the gun sight]. From this, it shows that a Tiger can take out a Sherman from extreme range on the side and rear and can take out a Sherman's front at about the same range the Sherman can penetrate a Tiger's side armor. I'd say that it's perfectly fine for a player to know the optimal ranges of engagement.

4 
 Thumb up
0.06
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.