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The Grizzled» Forums » Rules

Subject: Win with failed mission? rss

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Pieter Reumers
Belgium
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From reading the rules questions here on BGG I understand that you win immediately when the peace card is visible and all players have no cards in hand. That leads me to the following situation:

If you win immediately when the peace card is visible and all players have no cards in hand, does that mean that you can win the game even if the last played card causes the mission to fail?

In my opinion it would make much more sense to first end the mission, proceed to the support phase and check the win condition after the support phase (and after the check for the defeat condition). Can somebody explain this please? I agree that the rules aren't very clear on this topic. Thanks!
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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Discussion in these threads suggest that players would win this case:
When exactly do you win?
Victory condition clarification
Intensity/Victory

Admittedly, some of the discussions focused on acquisition of a fourth hard knock, but the reasoning generally says that victory is immediate whenever the condition becomes true.
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Pieter Reumers
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Ok, thanks! It feels a bit counter intuitive, but if it's a win, I'll take it
 
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Scott LeBlanc
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Thematically it's "taking one for the team. Sacrificing for the greater good.

Grizzix
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Jeff Jones
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The cards represent all the threats that are wearing down the players (the comrades-in-arms). So thematically, three of the same threat could mean that the soldiers reach a type of breaking point and find themselves further from surviving intact till the end of the war (the mission fails, not in military terms but in morale terms). But if that final breaking point coincided with the declaration of the armistice, then our band of soldiers made it through, just barely.

Somewhat to the point, it was estimated that 11,000 soldiers were casualties on the last day of the war. article here
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Kevin Duke
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I've always thought the men involved in this were despicable.

Rep Bland's question strikes to the core. "How many generals were killed that day? How many colonels?"

May those people roast...yuk
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Barry Miller
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This discussion is also being had in this thread: Winning with a failed mission ( three of the same threats), where I posted this same comment:


It appears the confusion is, where in the turn sequence are the victory conditions checked?

If you go by the placement in the rulebook, the victory conditions are checked at the end of the "Support" step. (The rule about being defeated due to 4 Hard Knocks specifies that this check is done after resolving the Support step). And the Victory Condition rule is included in that same box on page 8.

Thusly it stands to reason that the Victory Conditions are checked after cards from a losing mission are returned to the Trials Deck.

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Gillum the Stoor
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The box on page 8 identifies both Defeat Condition and Victory Condition.

The former explicitly says, "After the resolution of Support"; the latter omits that.

While this material indeed appears on the page about "Support," it is placed in a box as if to make it a separate topic.

I think that one can infer that Victory is evaluated only "After the resolution of Support" only if one believes that that clause was erroneously omitted from the rules (which is certainly possible).

Moreover, the threads that I quoted above all tend to suggest that victory conditions are not evaluated only at that time.

For example, look at the post by PunTheHun here. He writes, ""Both "pile" victory/loss conditions take effect instantly, the "hard knock" condition applies after the support phase. He has spoken with the designer about some rules questions, so I consider his posts to be reasonably authoritative.

(That said, he does not know the answer to the OP's question here.)

I believe that the resolution of the original question here depends on whether the play of a third identical Threat card and the consequent failure of Mission (and return of cards to the Trials pile) is an indivisible action that does not allow victory evaluation along the way.
 
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Barry Miller
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Gillum,

Everything you wrote above is certainly sound logic. But so is the logic I presented above your post. That's the problem... all of us can be right or wrong. I'd love to see a member of the design team or the publisher provide the official answer.

You used the words, "infer", and "suggest" to describe the interpretation that you and others are adopting. (That being that victory occurs as soon as the condition is met). And sure, I can be on board with interpretation as well! But after really thinking about it, and deciding that the rule about the victory condition was placed on page 8 for a reason, I believe that the interpretation I present above is the designer's intent and also makes the most sense.

And yes, I read PunTheHun's post, but wondered what reference he used to come to such an official answer? I have no way of knowing that he's officially correct, any more than the rest of us. Though I agree that his answers usually are reliable.

And your last sentence is absolutely spot on. Again, after re-reading the rules and thinking about it, I don't see how it is an indivisible action. The rules are quite clear as to what happens when you lose a mission. But the rules are NOT so clear as to when you apply the Victory condition. Except for the fact that the rule about the victory condition is specifically located in the rulebook after the support step is resolved. That's the best information I'm using to base my interpretation on.

Thx!

 
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Aaron Cohen
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My problem with your interpretation is that to reach it you have to assume an error in the text. (Also, Gillum was referring to your argument, not his when he used the word "infer")

To reach the current "mostly accepted" conclusion you just need a plain reading of the text.
 
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Barry Miller
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remleduff wrote:
My problem with your interpretation is that to reach it you have to assume an error in the text. (Also, Gillum was referring to your argument, not his when he used the word "infer")

To reach the current "mostly accepted" conclusion you just need a plain reading of the text.

Aaron,

Thanks for the feedback, and for pointing out that Gillum's use of "infer" was directed at what I wrote rather than at previous conversations. Though I repeated it mostly because the going conversation does infer the current "mostly accepted" conclusion, as you put it. After all, without an official ruling, it is all inference, speculation, and interpretation. By all of us. Usually though, this would be enough to arrive at an unanimously recognized ruling. Except in this case, the OP's question really does make or break the entire game in the situation he described, so getting it right matters.

Again, I'm not arguing that the current "mostly accepted" conclusion is wrong. As you said, it's derived from a plain reading of the text. But rather, I offer that the conclusion I presented above is "more right".

And I'm not assuming an error in the text. I'm not sure how I may've conveyed that. What I am saying is that the text which everyone refers to, simply isn't complete. It's not complete because it doesn't stipulate the timing of when the Victory condition is considered. I don't think anyone would argue that?

So given the incomplete wording, we have to interpret the information we do have... And that is that upon failing a mission, the "No Man's Land" cards are shuffled back into the Trials pile. This rule is clear. Thusly the Peace Card would no longer be visible. Now of course it could very easily be argued that the Victory Condition occurs as soon as the third (failing) card leaves the player's hand and is placed in "No Man's Land", leaving all hands empty and the Peace card momentarily uncovered! Victory! And in the absence of other information, this would be the most likely conclusion. But there is more information, which is what I base my presentation on. For instance...

The above scenario really doesn't make sense, does it? Is this what we really believe that the designer intended as the result for a failed mission in this situation? Well, I'm in the camp that this is not what was intended. It simply makes more sense that when a mission is failed, the act of shuffling the "No Man's Land" cards back into the Trials deck must be accomplished. This makes the most sense.

So when you consider what is clear in the rules, and what makes sense, and combine that with the knowledge that the rule for the Victory Condition is located in the rulebook after the "End of Mission" step, provides us with better information from which to interpret a conclusion. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying I'm right, but rather that it's a better-informed interpretation, yet of course subject to inferences and speculation!

 
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Gillum the Stoor
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PunTheHun checked with the designer and reports the following: "the failure of the mission comes first, as it is a direct and immediate consequence of the card play. So, you play a card, handle its immediate consequences (they are part of the card play), and only then you check for victory. Which means, in our case, that you do not win."
 
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Barry Miller
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gillum wrote:
PunTheHun checked with the designer and reports the following: "the failure of the mission comes first, as it is a direct and immediate consequence of the card play. So, you play a card, handle its immediate consequences (they are part of the card play), and only then you check for victory. Which means, in our case, that you do not win."

So it sounds like this is validating what I wrote above? Not trying to beat my chest... am only making sure I'm reading your post correctly, or I'll have to go back and correct mine!


 
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Gillum the Stoor
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bgm1961 wrote:

gillum wrote:
PunTheHun checked with the designer and reports the following: "the failure of the mission comes first, as it is a direct and immediate consequence of the card play. So, you play a card, handle its immediate consequences (they are part of the card play), and only then you check for victory. Which means, in our case, that you do not win."

So it sounds like this is validating what I wrote above? Not trying to beat my chest... am only making sure I'm reading your post correctly, or I'll have to go back and correct mine!

You are correct in that players do not win immediately in this case.

It doesn't confirm that victory is checked only after resolution of support, as was suggested initially. But you did make a number of updates after that.
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Xristos Lagogiannis
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In page 8 , at the victory condition isn't mentioned anything about support tiles or hard knock cards. Only exhausted trial pile, peace card visible and 0 cards in hand. Confused....
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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fifini wrote:
In page 8 , at the victory condition isn't mentioned anything about support tiles or hard knock cards. Only exhausted trial pile, peace card visible and 0 cards in hand. Confused....

That is correct.

Support tile, hard knock cards, and speech tokens are not needed for victory.

All that is needed is for the trials pile to be exhausted, the peace card to be visible, and players' hands to be empty.

Players win if this happens at any time during the game.

The only exception/qualification identified in this thread is the following: the play of a card that causes a mission to fail immediately causes the No Man’s Land cards to be shuffled into the Trials pile.

Even if that card played would have emptied the player's hand, victory is not evaluated until this process completes.

In the more likely case that there were cards in No Man's Land, there is no victory because the Trials pile would not be empty.

In the less likely case that there were no cards in No Man's Land (and the mission failed solely due to Hard Knocks), players could win despite the mission failing.
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Barry Miller
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Agree 100% with what Gillum wrote above. The case I was making earlier in the thread, about the victory condition rule being found on page 8, was only to emphasize that victory isn't checked till after the "No Man's Land" cards are returned to the Trials pile, in the case of a failed mission.

I saw the placement on page 8 as an indication of this timing, not specifically that it must occur after the Support step, though it wouldn't make any difference in this case. Sorry if I muddied the waters by throwing the words, "Support Step" into the mix.

The bottom line is that Victory is not instantaneous. In the case of a failed mission, it must be fully resolved first, before checking for victory, which is what I was originally trying to say!






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