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A Game of Thrones: The Card Game (Second Edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Ethics regarding reverts rss

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I came across a frustrating issue on OCTGN.

I was on defense against a stealth-enabled Mirri, and intended to fully oppose. I knelt a few important characters in the process. Problem was, I forgot about Danaeris' modifiers while standing. I began to realize my mistake when the opponent designated Mirri's kill. Since I couldn't muster enough defense, I thought my best option was to just chump-block. The guy didn't want any of that, and insisted on not un-kneeling any of my characters.

I tried to argue my point. No information was revealed, it was a dumb math mistake, since there was no point in committing so many important defenders to a losing cause. Eventually I quit. I was in the lead, but this was ruining the game, and I didn't want to play against this kind of player. I agree that mistakes are part of the game, but I don't see the point on winning AND losing on such a note.

My question will be two-fold:
1 - If you were the attacking player, how would you react ?
2 - If you were the defending player (me), what would you do ?

Please argue in the comments.
 
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Kyle A
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meh, you made a mistake on a digital implementation of a complex card game. don't get too bent out of shape about it, but don't expect people to backtrack in order to make up for your accounting error. Probably not worth the rage-quit
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Zeb
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There is no obligation for you opponent to let you take it back and it's unfair for you to expect them to do so. That being said, I and most people in my experience would let you take it back in a non-tournament setting since there was no new information.
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Zebadiah wrote:
There is no obligation for you opponent to let you take it back and it's unfair for you to expect them to do so. That being said, I and most people in my experience would let you take it back in a non-tournament setting since there was no new information.


Why would you let me take it back ? And if there's a good reason, why wouldn't it be fair to expect you to do it ?
 
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alexankh wrote:
meh, you made a mistake on a digital implementation of a complex card game. don't get too bent out of shape about it, but don't expect people to backtrack in order to make up for your accounting error. Probably not worth the rage-quit


Let's put a spin on it. Let's assume the other player mistakenly counts their dominance too low, which makes you gain the power token. Would you let him get the token back after the next round has started ?
 
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Jimmie Andersson
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Yeah, you should probably just let it go and try to learn from it (in my experience you learn much more from losses and mistakes than from wins). Also if you were winning the game should be more interesting after that, so just play it out. Of course it is always nice to win but being a baby about a mistake in a casual game online just seems not worth it.

(Also, information was kind of revealed in that your opponent had no other reactions before the Miri-kill in that game state. Not much, but it could be argued.)
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ilgoga wrote:
Yeah, you should probably just let it go and try to learn from it (in my experience you learn much more from losses and mistakes than from wins).


I will argue that I would have learned as much if the other player had let me revert (reverting is just the sign that the mistake was acknowledged). And I will even argue that I would have learned better if, after the revert, I had the opportunity to lose to a more "worthy" mistake. You learn from mistakes, but there are ways to do it that are better or worse, and all mistakes are not equal and not to be treated equally. If I lose a challenge to someone who unexpectedly manages to pull off a combo, I will respect that. They outsmarted me, that's fine. Conversely, if I win against someone who miscalculated modifiers, I will let it go.
 
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Zeb
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throughtheages56 wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
There is no obligation for you opponent to let you take it back and it's unfair for you to expect them to do so. That being said, I and most people in my experience would let you take it back in a non-tournament setting since there was no new information.


Why would you let me take it back ? And if there's a good reason, why wouldn't it be fair to expect you to do it ?


Because I personally care less about winning and more about playing an interesting competitive game. I don't want to win because my opponent did their math incorrectly, I want to win because of superior strategy. If it's not a tournament game, the primary purpose is not to win (even though both players are still trying to win).
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Zebadiah wrote:
throughtheages56 wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
There is no obligation for you opponent to let you take it back and it's unfair for you to expect them to do so. That being said, I and most people in my experience would let you take it back in a non-tournament setting since there was no new information.


Why would you let me take it back ? And if there's a good reason, why wouldn't it be fair to expect you to do it ?


Because I personally care less about winning and more about playing an interesting competitive game. I don't want to win because my opponent did their math incorrectly, I want to win because of superior strategy. If it's not a tournament game, the primary purpose is not to win (even though both players are still trying to win).


Well, we pretty much match 100% in terms of gaming philosophy.

That’s also the philosophy I expect from my opponent. It’s fair that I quit without being called a crybaby, if they don’t want a competitve game where winning is based on strategy, rather than math errors.
 
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throughtheages56 wrote:
ilgoga wrote:
Yeah, you should probably just let it go and try to learn from it (in my experience you learn much more from losses and mistakes than from wins).


I will argue that I would have learned as much if the other player had let me revert (reverting is just the sign that the mistake was acknowledged). And I will even argue that I would have learned better if, after the revert, I had the opportunity to lose to a more "worthy" mistake. You learn from mistakes, but there are ways to do it that are better or worse, and all mistakes are not equal and not to be treated equally. If I lose a challenge to someone who unexpectedly manages to pull off a combo, I will respect that. They outsmarted me, that's fine. Conversely, if I win against someone who miscalculated modifiers, I will let it go.

Hopefully you will have learned not to forget about Danny. You will have learned that when playing Targ you have to double/triple check your math. You don't make the cut by forgetting your triggers and often times the person who wins is the one that made the fewest mistakes. Your opponent does not need to outsmart you if you keep forgetting to take your unopposed power. You made a common mistake, who cares. Play it out and then play another game. It's supposed to be fun, right?
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roborob wrote:
Hopefully you will have learned not to forget about Danny. You will have learned that when playing Targ you have to double/triple check your math. You don't make the cut by forgetting your triggers and often times the person who wins is the one that made the fewest mistakes. Your opponent does not need to outsmart you if you keep forgetting to take your unopposed power. You made a common mistake, who cares. Play it out and then play another game. It's supposed to be fun, right?


The opponent does need to outsmart me if we agree on reverting stupid mistakes. That’s simple courtesy that matches a philosophy shared by many.

No, I don’t want to play out casual games where my opponent is content with winning on stupid mistakes. No, it’s not fun to be denied opportunities to make a good, interesting game out of such mistakes.

So I disagree 100% with you (and yes, I learned that I need to triple check Dany).
 
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ilgoga wrote:
Of course it is always nice to win but being a baby about a mistake in a casual game online just seems not worth it.


Actually, I think the opposite. It’s trying to win a casual game by denying reverts on such basic mistakes that seems the more baby-like to me. Playing to win while forgetting about good competition (capitalizing on math errors is not good competition) is the stage BEFORE gaming wisdom.
 
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Drew Dallas
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I happen to think your opponent was within his rights to deny you the take back, unless you specify up front that take backs are OK. What it boils down to is you were trying to bend the rules (since there is nothing in the rules about a take back of a fully legal move) and were mad he didn't let you. In the future since you are playing with another person who has their own ideas on what is and is not acceptable in play, just make that clear before you start playing. That way both of you are on the same page.
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Darksbane wrote:
I happen to think your opponent was within his rights to deny you the take back, unless you specify up front that take backs are OK. What it boils down to is you were trying to bend the rules (since there is nothing in the rules about a take back of a fully legal move) and were mad he didn't let you. In the future since you are playing with another person who has their own ideas on what is and is not acceptable in play, just make that clear before you start playing. That way both of you are on the same page.


Of course he was within his rights. But there are nuances here. Reverting forgetting a modifier, when no information was revealed, is one thing. Reverting a whole challenge phase is another thing. I’m just asking for the former.

It’s not written in the rules, but there are attitudes that have more class than others, I think everybody can understand that.

Thanks for the advice. I think it’s kinda sad I have to stipulate that up front.
 
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Kyle A
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then set the ground rules ahead of time and make it known that reverts will be used liberally,

there is a fine line between making a simple mistake and realizing a superior option after the fact. Both of which are factors in face to face matches

Not saying you intended it this way but it comes off that you want the best of both worlds to suit YOU the best. try to think about it from his perspective.
 
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throughtheages56 wrote:
ilgoga wrote:
Of course it is always nice to win but being a baby about a mistake in a casual game online just seems not worth it.


Actually, I think the opposite. It’s trying to win a casual game by denying reverts on such basic mistakes that seems the more baby-like to me. Playing to win while forgetting about good competition (capitalizing on math errors is not good competition) is the stage BEFORE gaming wisdom.


Also I will argue that your mistake was not a math mistake (since I guess that you did calculate correctly but used the wrong numbers) but that you failed to comperend the whole game state. And knowing the cards and see all the interactions of what is at many times a lot of complicated cards doing a lot of different stuff is very much an important skill in games like this and part of what make it interesting.
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alexankh wrote:
then set the ground rules ahead of time and make it known that reverts will be used liberally,

there is a fine line between making a simple mistake and realizing a superior option after the fact. Both of which are factors in face to face matches


This was a simple mistake, it was obvious. I couldn’t win the challenge, and yet I committed Edric Dayne, Randyll Tarly and Margaery. I only needed one to block unopposed. I was also second player.


alexankh wrote:
Not saying you intended it this way but it comes off that you want the best of both worlds to suit YOU the best.


You didn’t read my posts, I clearly stated that I will allow reverts. I would actually go the extra mile and allow my opponent to revert several challenges if it wasn’t a logistical nightmare.
 
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ilgoga wrote:
Also I will argue that your mistake was not a math mistake (since I guess that you did calculate correctly but used the wrong numbers) but that you failed to comperend the whole game state. And knowing the cards and see all the interactions of what is at many times a lot of complicated cards doing a lot of different stuff is very much an important skill in games like this and part of what make it interesting.


Well, I can only say you are wrong, since it wouldn’t be convenient to try to prove it here. I just forgot the text on her card.
 
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throughtheages56 wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
throughtheages56 wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
There is no obligation for you opponent to let you take it back and it's unfair for you to expect them to do so. That being said, I and most people in my experience would let you take it back in a non-tournament setting since there was no new information.


Why would you let me take it back ? And if there's a good reason, why wouldn't it be fair to expect you to do it ?


Because I personally care less about winning and more about playing an interesting competitive game. I don't want to win because my opponent did their math incorrectly, I want to win because of superior strategy. If it's not a tournament game, the primary purpose is not to win (even though both players are still trying to win).


Well, we pretty much match 100% in terms of gaming philosophy.

That’s also the philosophy I expect from my opponent. It’s fair that I quit without being called a crybaby


Where are you getting that? Quitting is pretty poor form. You should have played it out despite your mistake. You're not entitled to take-backs, especially not if you don't make it clear up front as other users have suggested. The default rule is no take-backs, not a given player's unstated preference.
 
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Kyle A
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actually I did read your posts and the posts from others on here who are trying to meet you half way but apparently everyone else is wrong and you are right
 
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Zebadiah wrote:
Where are you getting that? Quitting is pretty poor form. You should have played it out despite your mistake. You're not entitled to take-backs, especially not if you don't make it clear up front as other users have suggested. The default rule is no take-backs, not a given player's unstated preference.


Sometimes in life, it’s not about rules, but about being... a class act, you know? We can disagree on what a class act is, but if you think it’s more of a class act to deny the easiest revert in the world just to win, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.
 
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throughtheages56 wrote:
ilgoga wrote:
Also I will argue that your mistake was not a math mistake (since I guess that you did calculate correctly but used the wrong numbers) but that you failed to comperend the whole game state. And knowing the cards and see all the interactions of what is at many times a lot of complicated cards doing a lot of different stuff is very much an important skill in games like this and part of what make it interesting.


Well, I can only say you are wrong, since it wouldn’t be convenient to try to prove it here. I just forgot the text on her card.


Ok, so just to be clear, you are saying that forgetting the text of a card makes you bad at math?

(Otherwise, what I did try to say above is that you forgot the text of a card.)
 
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ilgoga wrote:
throughtheages56 wrote:
ilgoga wrote:
Also I will argue that your mistake was not a math mistake (since I guess that you did calculate correctly but used the wrong numbers) but that you failed to comperend the whole game state. And knowing the cards and see all the interactions of what is at many times a lot of complicated cards doing a lot of different stuff is very much an important skill in games like this and part of what make it interesting.


Well, I can only say you are wrong, since it wouldn’t be convenient to try to prove it here. I just forgot the text on her card.


Ok, so just to be clear, you are saying that forgetting the text of a card makes you bad at math?

(Otherwise, what I did try to say above is that you forgot the text of a card.)


I said I made a “math error.” Call it anything you want, it doesn’t change my points. Sorry but I have the “skills” to remember text when I pay more attention. Don’t be too condescending, it isn’t good for your health.
 
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alexankh wrote:
actually I did read your posts and the posts from others on here who are trying to meet you half way but apparently everyone else is wrong and you are right


That’s it? That’s your argument? Thanks.
 
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throughtheages56 wrote:
Zebadiah wrote:
Where are you getting that? Quitting is pretty poor form. You should have played it out despite your mistake. You're not entitled to take-backs, especially not if you don't make it clear up front as other users have suggested. The default rule is no take-backs, not a given player's unstated preference.


Sometimes in life, it’s not about rules, but about being... a class act, you know? We can disagree on what a class act is, but if you think it’s more of a class act to deny the easiest revert in the world just to win, then we’ll have to agree to disagree.


I would contend that being a "class act" is not rage quitting because your opponent didn't let you take back a mistake that you made. In my opinion a class act takes the high road and accepts his mistakes and attempts to overcome them to win the game. The comments you are making on here towards those who disagree with your point of view may indicate why your opponent didn't want to let your mistakes slide and take it back.
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