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Myth» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Opinions about Novice advanced Hero cards rss

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David Griffin
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I'm getting ready for a game to test out some of the advanced hero cards in some of the characters, just to see how they play. But when I did, I ran into an interesting problem.

Since the new cards involve swapping cards rather than just adding them, I found myself not at all sure what to discard. The Megacon games folks did a pretty good job of making most if not all of the standard deck cards useful and some cards, once discarded, lose you the ability to use some advanced cards too.

So question 1 is what is your swapping strategy? What do you swap and what do you swap it for and why?

And question 2 is would you rather just add the advanced cards like you do for agent cards? Would it be so bad to have a larger deck? It WOULD keep certain key cards out of your hands longer since it would be longer till your deck is reshuffled and you might re-draw the same cards, but even so I'm kind of thinking I'd rather add them if it doesn't go much beyond 30 cards. Or maybe you could just be given a choice?

What do you think?
 
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Trevor Schadt
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carbon_dragon wrote:
So question 1 is what is your swapping strategy? What do you swap and what do you swap it for and why?
It really depends, both on the character, the card, and the player's play style. If your Soldier isn't doing a lot of NCAs, for example, The Easy Way would be an obvious discard. If your Archer always has plenty of arrows readied and is just waiting for Orion's Tears to cycle around again, taking something other than the novice version out when putting the advanced version in is a good idea because it gives you access to the card (statistically) twice as often.

carbon_dragon wrote:
And question 2 is would you rather just add the advanced cards like you do for agent cards? Would it be so bad to have a larger deck? It WOULD keep certain key cards out of your hands longer since it would be longer till your deck is reshuffled and you might re-draw the same cards, but even so I'm kind of thinking I'd rather add them if it doesn't go much beyond 30 cards. Or maybe you could just be given a choice?
The debate between thin-decking and thick-decking is still very much alive and well in CCGs that don't have a mandated deck size. Given that most combats don't tend to last an entire deck cycle as it is -- and for those that do, you want as high a chance as possible of your alpha attacks coming around again -- I'm on the side of thin-decking in this case.

There's no hard and fast reason why it has to be that way -- as opposed to a game like Netrunner or Magic where decking either means you lose, or are about to -- so if you want to play it that way, I don't see any reason not to house-rule it. But my guess is that, after a few adventures, you'll start to notice where your deck is diluted and want to take those cards out anyway.
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Matthew H
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A lot of my swap decisions depends on what I want to do with the character. I'm playing an acolyte with my wife who is also playing the archer. We are finding in general that we can have a lot of down time without any attacks so I looked to replace some non combat cards with more attacks when I made the switch. If we had a larger group that could deal more damage, I'd most likely work on adding more support and healing cards so that I'd have a better time keeping my allies alive.

You are correct that the base novice cards are by and large all useful. What I think is most important is looking to determine what role you will be filling with your group and dropping cards that don't fit that role in order to add more cards that do fit that role.

For question 2, I have wanted to play around with just adding cards to the deck but as you observed it would just keep other cards out of my hands for longer. So in the current incarnation I think that thin decking is the way to go.

What I think I'd actually like to see are more cards that let me actually interact with my deck. Either through searching the deck or allowing me to draw more cards. Right now I feel like it's too easy to end up with a shit hand and no way to do anything about it except wait to get to the next round and draw a new hand.

I think we need more cards that say things like "draw 2 cards" or "search your deck for this card and put it in your hand/on top of your deck". Basically, in Magic: the Gathering terms, I'm looking for more blue card draw and tutoring abilities.
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Tobias Loeffler
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I do the following:

I treat getting new hero card as "unlocks" - which means, 1 of the 5 advanced hero cards is ready to be used in my deck.

At the start of each adventure / module AND whenever someone is granted a deck manipulation, I allow people to swap cards in and out. I like this approach alot better. It gives players a feeling of being "in control" of their hero and it allows for some interesting planning before the adventure starts.

If you want to go 1 step further you might have a look at my card-based advancement system: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/133705/myth-paths-des... or - if you are more into traditional XP-systems, there are tons of other great mods in the file section.

The general problem the MYTH hero progression system is facing atm:

Scope: We have tons of stuff, yet our heroes only advance to "Novice". Other games with that much content usually take you from whelp to god. It's easy to forget the "big picture" when looking at this game.

Items: Equipment outclasses the advanced hero cards in any aspect and makes them feel weak. ATM you have to use houserules to get any sense
of progression with the hero cards IF you allow your heroes to keep equip.

Duality: As of yet, there is no simple, official way, how heroes move from modules to adventure mode or the other way round. It all still feels disjointed. While it seems that JM will try to fix this, I'm not too optimistic...

Difficutly rating: Still we are missing an official path through the mass of content. The 1001+ "how to start" thread here is simple proof, that the missing content rating and content guidance was / is a major oversight on their (MCGs) part, that needs to be fixed. Once JM hits, newcomers will be totally lost.
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David Griffin
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nimmzwei wrote:
I do the following:

I treat getting new hero card as "unlocks" - which means, 1 of the 5 advanced hero cards is ready to be used in my deck.

At the start of each adventure / module AND whenever someone is granted a deck manipulation, I allow people to swap cards in and out. I like this approach alot better. It gives players a feeling of being "in control" of their hero and it allows for some interesting planning before the adventure starts.

If you want to go 1 step further you might have a look at my card-based advancement system: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/133705/myth-paths-des... or - if you are more into traditional XP-systems, there are tons of other great mods in the file section.

The general problem the MYTH hero progression system is facing atm:

Scope: We have tons of stuff, yet our heroes only advance to "Novice". Other games with that much content usually take you from whelp to god. It's easy to forget the "big picture" when looking at this game.

Items: Equipment outclasses the advanced hero cards in any aspect and makes them feel weak. ATM you have to use houserules to get any sense
of progression with the hero cards IF you allow your heroes to keep equip.

Duality: As of yet, there is no simple, official way, how heroes move from modules to adventure mode or the other way round. It all still feels disjointed. While it seems that JM will try to fix this, I'm not too optimistic...

Difficutly rating: Still we are missing an official path through the mass of content. The 1001+ "how to start" thread here is simple proof, that the missing content rating and content guidance was / is a major oversight on their (MCGs) part, that needs to be fixed. Once JM hits, newcomers will be totally lost.


Yes that's true, playing with great equipment seems more important than the advanced hero cards which seem to either give you a card with 1 less AP or 1 more range or a new capability that is not really that much more powerful than the other cards. I like the unlock idea, so you can re-formulate the deck before each adventure.

The Difficulty thing is important. I like the game's unique choice -- being able to choose your adventure on the fly (if you have the knowledge to do it wisely which you often don't as a new player), but it would be nice to have a starting place on threat levels.

You could ALMOST hand the players the 30 cards and tell them to pick 25. Yes they'd probably pick the advanced versions of the beginner cards first but after that I bet not all the advanced cards would even be picked. It would be a deck building aspect of the game that might be interesting.

After my first couple of LONG sessions with lots of tiles and two different groups I decided to allow myself some advanced cards just to test them out and that's when I realized that I wasn't even sure which ones I actually wanted and what I was prepared to let go of.

This game is full of road-blocks where the new player suddenly finds himself trying to make a decision without knowing what he's doing which can be frustrating. I suggested the possibility of just adding the cards because that seemed like an easier decision than trying to look through the existing cards to throw one away. You shouldn't expect players to become experts overnight and they don't expect this either, but it's better to engineer the game so that new players can play and have fun and only find out about the depth of the game later on. I'm frankly not sure how you do that though.
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Judy Krauss
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For new players, this article I wrote rating of the monster minions and captains (all using just the base game Darkness Deck, though) should be helpful:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1608595/relative-difficulty-...
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David Griffin
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Jude wrote:
For new players, this article I wrote rating of the monster minions and captains (all using just the base game Darkness Deck, though) should be helpful:

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1608595/relative-difficulty-...


I've read it. It's a nice description of the various factions. If you have the Acolyte in the party, the crawlers are not much more formidable than the grubbers except that the captain is more difficult because of the courage test. Without the Acolyte or some way to cure poison it's just like you say. Your thread could be used as the basis to put a "skulls" rating on the various factions which would be a good thing. I kind of feel like rather than skimping on mini-bosses, they should have provided good mini-bosses for every faction and skimped on the bosses. That would have been a lot more useful to new players. Many of those bosses are really too hard for "novice" players anyway. The insect boss may be beatable by characters who're not too powerful but most of the others not as much. Also it's kind of strange that the power level jumps so steeply from captain to mini-boss and especially from mini-boss to boss.

Frankly I'm thinking that nearly every character class should have a way to deal with various conditions, perhaps by means of a set of "universal" cards that you can choose to shuffle into your decks (like the convention promo cards or an agent card). That way you could freely choose more fringe classes without fearing certain effects like poison.
 
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carbon_dragon wrote:
Frankly I'm thinking that nearly every character class should have a way to deal with various conditions, perhaps by means of a set of "universal" cards that you can choose to shuffle into your decks (like the convention promo cards or an agent card). That way you could freely choose more fringe classes without fearing certain effects like poison.


I agree.

I solved this problem for myself a few years ago when I designed a new/improved Agent and Agent mechanic. The thread itself is a long one (here). I hated how I needed an Acolyte in every party in order to manage poison. I felt the game needed a card ("Restorative Aura") that anyone could use and allow more diverse groups to play and have a chance to heal. I used that concept when designing the new Agent. Maybe this card works for you and could be used outside the Agent concept (if you don't like my Agent idea).



Let me know if you want to use it and it needs some tweaking. I think it's fine, but if there's a desire for different/tweaked powers, I am happy to update the card and add to that geeklist.

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Matthew H
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carbon_dragon wrote:
Frankly I'm thinking that nearly every character class should have a way to deal with various conditions, perhaps by means of a set of "universal" cards that you can choose to shuffle into your decks (like the convention promo cards or an agent card). That way you could freely choose more fringe classes without fearing certain effects like poison.


Hah, now you start getting into class homogenization. Welcome to one of the prevailing issues of World of Warcraft for the past several years. You are correct in that it allows players to play whatever hero they want. But at the same time, when everyone can do everything, what makes playing a particular hero special? Flavor? In my opinion it's much more important to have differences that encourage players to think about what heroes they want on the team.

If you're going to make status clearing available to all classes, why not do the same for healing? You could argue that each class should have some form of self healing to help them with staying alive even if they don't have a dedicated healer in their group. But if everyone has self healing, what makes the acolyte special outside of needing him for say boss fights?
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DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
Frankly I'm thinking that nearly every character class should have a way to deal with various conditions, perhaps by means of a set of "universal" cards that you can choose to shuffle into your decks (like the convention promo cards or an agent card). That way you could freely choose more fringe classes without fearing certain effects like poison.


Hah, now you start getting into class homogenization. Welcome to one of the prevailing issues of World of Warcraft for the past several years. You are correct in that it allows players to play whatever hero they want. But at the same time, when everyone can do everything, what makes playing a particular hero special? Flavor? In my opinion it's much more important to have differences that encourage players to think about what heroes they want on the team.

If you're going to make status clearing available to all classes, why not do the same for healing? You could argue that each class should have some form of self healing to help them with staying alive even if they don't have a dedicated healer in their group. But if everyone has self healing, what makes the acolyte special outside of needing him for say boss fights?


No argument - you're absolutely correct IMHO.

For me, it made the game more fun having the Agent drop a card like this. But yeah, point well taken. thumbsup
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Matthew H
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I think having it gated behind an agent would be an acceptable compromise. It takes effort to earn in order to do something your class can't normally do (Think finding a magic ring in DnD that allows a fighter to do some limited spellcasting). And I believe you can only earn the cards from an agent once, correct? This still results in some decision making of who gets the card and still limits that cleansing effect to one person in your group.

I think having cleansing cards be baseline for every hero makes the too generic but at the same time I totally understand that not having any sort of poison clearing abilities makes that a death sentence or forces you to cut a play session short since I believe poison currently lasts until end of session. Personally I think there should be a set limit on poison. Make it only last so many refresh phases but additional applications of poison either increases the number of refresh phases or increases the potency (2 damage per phase instead of one for 2 stacks, 3 for 3 stacks, etc.).
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DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
I think having it gated behind an agent would be an acceptable compromise. It takes effort to earn in order to do something your class can't normally do (Think finding a magic ring in DnD that allows a fighter to do some limited spellcasting). And I believe you can only earn the cards from an agent once, correct? This still results in some decision making of who gets the card and still limits that cleansing effect to one person in your group.


Correct on all points. I drew inspiration from exactly what you described in D&D and felt an Agent drop would a perfect way to achieve it.

DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
I think having cleansing cards be baseline for every hero makes the too generic but at the same time I totally understand that not having any sort of poison clearing abilities makes that a death sentence or forces you to cut a play session short since I believe poison currently lasts until end of session.


Agreed.

DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
Personally I think there should be a set limit on poison. Make it only last so many refresh phases but additional applications of poison either increases the number of refresh phases or increases the potency (2 damage per phase instead of one for 2 stacks, 3 for 3 stacks, etc.).


No doubt. This is just one of those areas that I think was either never tested or parties always contained the Acolyte when play testing. Or maybe McG intended this to behave in this frustrating manner. I suppose anything is possible.

I just knew after the first time I lost a hero to poison when the Acolyte wasn't in the party that it was super frustrating ... and then did something about it.
 
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Judy Krauss
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Disagree. There is no need to put time limits on these things. There are potions for healing vitality, and clearing poison and curses. And at the end of an Act (or an adventure) all effects are cleared, anyway. Without the danger of getting your heroes killed, the game loses a lot of the suspense and is too easy (and perhaps would become somewhat boring).
 
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Jude wrote:
And at the end of an Act (or an adventure) all effects are cleared, anyway.


Jude - just so I understand, you're saying all effects are cleared at the end of an Adventure - so that means tile? If that's what you mean I don't see where the rules tell you all effects are cleared.

The reason I ask is I've always played that effects continue across tiles. If I play 4 tiles and draw adventures for each tile in succession any effects I have carry over. I interpret what you said above as telling me I can clear effects such as poison when completing an adventure which equates to a tile.

Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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Matthew H
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Jude definitely means it continues across multiple tiles. An adventure is a play session under the new definition IIRC.

I won't lie, I had forgotten there are potions that clear poison.
That may be an option as you could specifically pick out 4x6 tiles to get merchants to spawn if you really need potions. But what if you get poisoned without having a potion or way to clear poison through a hero? You might as well end your current session with that hero as there's no way you're going to clear a tile in time to get rid of poison.

Heroes might come back after the tile/act is cleared but that's a pretty bad solution for a multi-person play through. I understand you play by yourself for the most part, Jude, so you can just keep playing other heroes but in a situation where you're playing with other people that player is effectively out until they can bring their hero back in.
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Tobias Loeffler
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I'm also against adding universal cards - or let's better say - I'm against adding universal cards that just try to make each hero into a jack of all traits.

IMHO MCG should have explored the agent concept (enemies dropping cards) much, much further. They could have added really cool, thematic decks to each mini-boss and Boss (let's say mini-boss 4 cards, boss 8 cards). They could even gone so far as to those cards giving special abilites to the enemy.

Let's say you encounter Yardu for the first time. You take 1 of his 4 cards
and that adds another fate recipe to his "specials". When you defeat him, you get the card.
Those cards could either go into a party pool (where they can be used by any hero - I would probably then add some special conditions or resources, that have to be spent) or be added like agent cards.

It would also have the great effect, that the lackluster reward you gain for fighting a mini-boss atm (yeah, we fought this guy for 45min and a white treasure token drops) would be remedied.

Writing all this, I think I have to sit down and design some enemy "hero" cards now...
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John
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You can also pay serendipity to call three dunes. I can't remember if sells potions or not.
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nimmzwei wrote:
It would also have the great effect, that the lackluster reward you gain for fighting a mini-boss atm (yeah, we fought this guy for 45min and a white treasure token drops) would be remedied.


Aren't you supposed to draw a blue treasure card for each hero involved in beating the boss?
 
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DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
nimmzwei wrote:
It would also have the great effect, that the lackluster reward you gain for fighting a mini-boss atm (yeah, we fought this guy for 45min and a white treasure token drops) would be remedied.


Aren't you supposed to draw a blue treasure card for each hero involved in beating the boss?


That's for beating a boss, not a miniboss... minibosses give one treasure token, same as a captain. I think that it should be a green treasure for each hero honestly.
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Mistermannindy wrote:
Jude wrote:
And at the end of an Act (or an adventure) all effects are cleared, anyway.


Jude - just so I understand, you're saying all effects are cleared at the end of an Adventure - so that means tile? If that's what you mean I don't see where the rules tell you all effects are cleared.

The reason I ask is I've always played that effects continue across tiles. If I play 4 tiles and draw adventures for each tile in succession any effects I have carry over. I interpret what you said above as telling me I can clear effects such as poison when completing an adventure which equates to a tile.

Am I understanding you correctly?



You misunderstood. We agree that status Effects do continue on to new tiles (unless otherwise cured). But an Adventure is usually several tiles. It can be a "session" or whenever you want to stop. Personally, I usually continue an Adventure until I have a boss fight.
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DrProfHazzmatt wrote:


Aren't you supposed to draw a blue treasure card for each hero involved in beating the boss?



No, just 1 Blue Treasure for the whole party if they have defeated a Boss, so only one hero can obtain it, although there are other benefits.:

According to page 29 of the 2.0 rulebook:
Quote:
Adventures allow heroes with titles the chance to find specific items they want to keep. Through questing it is possible to encounter bosses. If
the players defeat a boss while adventuring the group receives 1 random blue item from the item deck. In addition, each hero earns one of the corresponding titles listed in the table shown here, or each hero may manipulate 1 card in their hero deck.

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DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
Jude definitely means it continues across multiple tiles. An adventure is a play session under the new definition IIRC.

I won't lie, I had forgotten there are potions that clear poison.
That may be an option as you could specifically pick out 4x6 tiles to get merchants to spawn if you really need potions. But what if you get poisoned without having a potion or way to clear poison through a hero? You might as well end your current session with that hero as there's no way you're going to clear a tile in time to get rid of poison.

Heroes might come back after the tile/act is cleared but that's a pretty bad solution for a multi-person play through. I understand you play by yourself for the most part, Jude, so you can just keep playing other heroes but in a situation where you're playing with other people that player is effectively out until they can bring their hero back in.


Poison is not as dangerous as it would appear. Each Hero can only have a max of one Poison token (you can't be "doubly" poisoned, for example), so the most a hero will lose from poison each Hero Cycle is 1 Vitality point. This is easily compensated for with Vitality potions which can be found in dropped Treasure (or healing cards or items). Anti-Venom potions, which totally cure the Poison status effect can also be found in dropped Treasure.

In addition (see the Stolen Treasure quest and also the Serendipity chart in the 2.0 rulebook), Talek Three Dunes can be called with Serendipity whenever a tile is cleared, and a Vitality potion can be bought from him. Also, one of the other merchants (who, I admit, may never show up in your Adventure) sells an Anti-Venom potion.

The Accidental Cure quest gives 2 Vitality potions and 1 Anti-Venom potion as a reward, and the Floor Spikes trap gives 2 Vitality potions and the Chain Lightning trap give the party their choice of any 2 potions. And traps also give Serendipity, which can be used to resurrect a killed hero (who would then no longer have the Poison status effect).

I usually try to hoard some potions of various types, and also Serendipity, for when I will desperately need them (either to keep a hero alive or resurrect one), and I will usually not use an Anti-Venom potion until after I have finished fighting the monsters that have Poison attacks, so that I don't waste one by using it and then getting poisoned again on the same tile! Remember, a Hero can't be poisoned again if she/he already has a Poison status effect token. And at the end of an adventure, I often find that I didn't even use all of my potions or Serendipity that I had saved up (so it goes to waste, but better, IMHO, to have had it, just in case!).

I hope this helps some.


Edited for typos.
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js379 wrote:
DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
nimmzwei wrote:
It would also have the great effect, that the lackluster reward you gain for fighting a mini-boss atm (yeah, we fought this guy for 45min and a white treasure token drops) would be remedied.


Aren't you supposed to draw a blue treasure card for each hero involved in beating the boss?


That's for beating a boss, not a miniboss... minibosses give one treasure token, same as a captain. I think that it should be a green treasure for each hero honestly.


Or maybe draw 2 (or 3) treasure cards, but choose to keep 1...
 
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DrProfHazzmatt wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
Frankly I'm thinking that nearly every character class should have a way to deal with various conditions, perhaps by means of a set of "universal" cards that you can choose to shuffle into your decks (like the convention promo cards or an agent card). That way you could freely choose more fringe classes without fearing certain effects like poison.


Hah, now you start getting into class homogenization. Welcome to one of the prevailing issues of World of Warcraft for the past several years. You are correct in that it allows players to play whatever hero they want. But at the same time, when everyone can do everything, what makes playing a particular hero special? Flavor? In my opinion it's much more important to have differences that encourage players to think about what heroes they want on the team.

If you're going to make status clearing available to all classes, why not do the same for healing? You could argue that each class should have some form of self healing to help them with staying alive even if they don't have a dedicated healer in their group. But if everyone has self healing, what makes the acolyte special outside of needing him for say boss fights?


No what I'm doing is what a D&D party does under these same circumstances. If they have a cleric or druid, that is the healer. The pattern in D&D is not a series of near death experiences, but rather a series of encounters which wear down your hit points, so you need a healer to keep pace. But what if no-one wants to play that support character?

There are a variety of ways to handle this. Psionics are nice if present, but the more normal way to do it is either some item (wand of healing or the like) or potions. The universal card is essentially a stand in for the wand of healing. Sure the character is not a normal healer, but he's giving up a card in his deck to be the designated healer.

The more obvious solution is to give the players starting money and let them buy a few potions (or just give them the potions, IF they do not have a healing class with them).

Otherwise a given adventure is a LOT harder than it would normally be if you took a healer. If that is what you want, fine, but having one of my characters losing 1 HP every refresh phase over the next 2-3 tiles isn't a game I personally want to play. period. Naturally you make your own choice but I don't play games as a way to do penance, I want to have fun.

If this does sound like fun to you, more power to you! But I'd rather have a healer in the party.
 
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Matthew H
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In a situation where no one wants to play that particular support character, you make due without them. Which is what we currently do in Myth. There are plenty of stories of successful groups that don't have a healer or support of any kind in DnD. I'd argue that the same can be done in Myth.

The problem I have with a card representing a Wand of Healing is that the card is theoretically infinite. Whereas a wand usually has charges. The wand is matched more, in my opinion, by consumables such as vitality potions. Giving starting money/potions is definitely an option. Or, for those that don't want to add more to the rules, you can tailor your first few tiles to set you up to acquire a few potions.

You can start with something like grubbers on some 4x6 tiles to get some serendipity to summon talek three-dunes or just to spawn a merchant that might have potions for sale. Then once you've acquired the potions, you can start taking on some of the more dangerous monsters.

You'd do something similar in DnD. You don't go into the area filled with monsters with X mechanic right away. Instead, you gather supplies however you can that help you deal with X mechanic.
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