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Josh
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http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/12/world/robin-camp-rape-comments...

This judge's questions come right out of a bizzarre parody scenario you might expect to find in dark satire. This is the reason awareness is still an issue, shit like this shouldn't be a thing.
 
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jeremy cobert
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Quote:
The verdict was overturned on appeal. A new trial is scheduled for November.


I assume this is a "double jeopardy" type law or lack of that allows a retrial in Canada ?
 
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Christopher Bird
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jeremycobert wrote:
Quote:
The verdict was overturned on appeal. A new trial is scheduled for November.


I assume this is a "double jeopardy" type law or lack of that allows a retrial in Canada ?


In the United States the prosecution isn't allowed to appeal an innocent verdict in criminal court. In Canada the prosecution is allowed to appeal an innocent verdict in criminal court where they feel there was legal error or gross factual error; it doesn't happen often but it happens.

It's almost always about legal issues in arrest and detention scenarios - the extent of search powers, what constitutes right to counsel, what constitutes violation of a suspect's right to silence, et cetera - and it only really comes up when there's an unresolved issue at the higher court levels so it doesn't happen often. This case is the rare example of one that's basically happened because the Crown said "are you goddamn kidding me, he raped her."
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Les Marshall
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jeremycobert wrote:
Quote:
The verdict was overturned on appeal. A new trial is scheduled for November.


I assume this is a "double jeopardy" type law or lack of that allows a retrial in Canada ?


They must have a different standard. In the US, a jury would have been involved rather than leaving it up to a judge.
 
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Jage
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I'm confused anyway. Why is a judge with "no knowledge of Canadian law" presiding over a Canadian court?
 
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Damian
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jageroxorz wrote:
I'm confused anyway. Why is a judge with "no knowledge of Canadian law" presiding over a Canadian court?

Yeah I had read the other parts of the story so I didn't have much reaction, then I got to that part and I "what the fuck?"-ed through the rest of the article. I don't know how Canada selects its judges, but they might want to revisit that process.
 
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Christopher Bird
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jageroxorz wrote:
I'm confused anyway. Why is a judge with "no knowledge of Canadian law" presiding over a Canadian court?


He was appointed to the Alberta provincial court in 2014; by that point he had been practicing Canadian law for about sixteen years in a civil/business context. He said that he didn't have any knowledge of criminal law, which is understandable because criminal law is basically its own separate subsystem, and if you don't practice criminal law on a regular basis you're not going to know the fine points of it. Lawyers - and particularly good lawyers - specialize.

many judges tend to specialize as well - for example, in Ontario, the family law courts are largely their own separate thing and many judges therein only rule on family law matters. Presumably Camp did the same thing except he was a civil litigation judge. That having been said, when he was appointed into the judiciary, it was incumbent upon him to make sure he was able to operate at the capable minimum level expected of a judge in a context other than that with which he was familiar, because judges have to cover for other judges fairly regularly. And he didn't do that, and now he's making excuses.
 
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Jage
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mightygodking wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
I'm confused anyway. Why is a judge with "no knowledge of Canadian law" presiding over a Canadian court?


He was appointed to the Alberta provincial court in 2014; by that point he had been practicing Canadian law for about sixteen years in a civil/business context. He said that he didn't have any knowledge of criminal law, which is understandable because criminal law is basically its own separate subsystem, and if you don't practice criminal law on a regular basis you're not going to know the fine points of it. Lawyers - and particularly good lawyers - specialize.

many judges tend to specialize as well - for example, in Ontario, the family law courts are largely their own separate thing and many judges therein only rule on family law matters. Presumably Camp did the same thing except he was a civil litigation judge. That having been said, when he was appointed into the judiciary, it was incumbent upon him to make sure he was able to operate at the capable minimum level expected of a judge in a context other than that with which he was familiar, because judges have to cover for other judges fairly regularly. And he didn't do that, and now he's making excuses.


So, basically Canada has a shitty way to appoint judges? Why not look into changing that?
 
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J.D. Hall
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Too much moosecock.
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Christopher Bird
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jageroxorz wrote:
So, basically Canada has a shitty way to appoint judges? Why not look into changing that?


Because the system mostly works well and our judges are mostly pretty good at their jobs (and I speak as someone who deals with judges pretty regularly). One dude being a shitty judge isn't proof of a bad judicial appointments system.
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Jage
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mightygodking wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
So, basically Canada has a shitty way to appoint judges? Why not look into changing that?


Because the system mostly works well and our judges are mostly pretty good at their jobs (and I speak as someone who deals with judges pretty regularly). One dude being a shitty judge isn't proof of a bad judicial appointments system.


But, I mean, how did he get the job? If it's possible for someone without the knowledge pre-requisite, shouldn't you fix the loophole that got him in?
 
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Josh
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jageroxorz wrote:
mightygodking wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
So, basically Canada has a shitty way to appoint judges? Why not look into changing that?


Because the system mostly works well and our judges are mostly pretty good at their jobs (and I speak as someone who deals with judges pretty regularly). One dude being a shitty judge isn't proof of a bad judicial appointments system.


But, I mean, how did he get the job? If it's possible for someone without the knowledge pre-requisite, shouldn't you fix the loophole that got him in?


I *think* the idea is that almost no lawyer will be knowledgable in all types of law, and that once appointed a judge is supposed to get to brushing up, and comport themselves with due caution while doing so. This guy didn't.

The whole thing is a bit of a divergence anyway. His statements read as revolting on the face of it, legal knowledge or no.
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Christopher Bird
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Shadrach wrote:
jageroxorz wrote:
But, I mean, how did he get the job? If it's possible for someone without the knowledge pre-requisite, shouldn't you fix the loophole that got him in?


I *think* the idea is that almost no lawyer will be knowledgable in all types of law, and that once appointed a judge is supposed to get to brushing up, and comport themselves with due caution while doing so. This guy didn't.


This is pretty much how it works. There's no such thing as a lawyer who knows everything; it's not possible. Hence, there's no such thing as a judge who knows everything either, which is why - in Canada at least - you tend to have judicial "rotations" where judges do multi-year stints working one particular type of law, and only jump in to cover other types when there's overflow.

This is also why judges have law clerks. The clerks are there to make sure that the laws - statutory laws and precedent cases - that the judge needs to review to decide any case are readily available to the judge. They're essentially supplementary brains working for a paycheque.

Really, the whole system works really well when it's properly funded. (It's currently badly underfunded in most provinces and overloaded, but that's the sort of thing that's easily fixable if voters give a damn.)
 
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Robert Wesley
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jageroxorz wrote:
But, I mean, how did he get the job? If it's possible for someone without the knowledge pre-requisite, shouldn't you fix the loophole that got him in?
HIS 'box of Cracker Jacks' hadn't contained a BGG Admin 'prize', hence in LIEU instead! "Them's the 'breaks' Kit-Kat!" whistle
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