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Fury of Dracula (third edition)» Forums » Rules

Subject: darkness returns vs long night. rss

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jesse durham

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After playing darkness returns, does a dawn occur? In a game a friend wanted to play long night after darkness returns was played but long night requires a dawn. Darkness returns says there is no day, and the rulebook explicitly states a dawn occurs before the day. Without a day, there can be no dawn IMO.

But I can find no official ruling either way.
 
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H-B-G
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Ptaco wrote:
After playing darkness returns, does a dawn occur? In a game a friend wanted to play long night after darkness returns was played but long night requires a dawn. Darkness returns says there is no day, and the rulebook explicitly states a dawn occurs before the day. Without a day, there can be no dawn IMO.

But I can find no official ruling either way.


The order in the hunter phase is

1.Dawn
2.Day
3.Dusk
4.Night

As the rulebook states Dawn occurs before day and this is confirmed by the order above. So when the card says there is no day there is no effect on dawn which is separate and still happens as normal.

Although in real life you can't have dawn without a day, this is not real life and in this life dawn breaks and there is light and characters can do everything they can normally do at dawn (including playing Long Night), then darkness returns due to the count's unnatural powers and you skip to dusk.
 
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jesse durham

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DaveD wrote:


Although in real life you can't have dawn without a day, this is not real life and in this life dawn breaks and there is light and characters can do everything they can normally do at dawn (including playing Long Night), then darkness returns due to the count's unnatural powers and you skip to dusk.


Right. The train of thought was that darkness returns forces the game to go from end of dracula phase, right into dusk. since there is no day, that portion of the game is skipped. And since in the rules dawn must occur before the day (which was skipped) dawn was also skipped because and we start at dusk.

This is shown physically on the board by actually picking up the time piece, and placing it on the next day of the week's 'night' space. skipping the day space, where dawn would trigger.

But if the game is simply broken into 4 rounds like that, then yes i understand. I just found no where in the rules that clarified the game had a standard 4 separate rounds.
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H-B-G
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Ptaco wrote:


But if the game is simply broken into 4 rounds like that, then yes i understand. I just found no where in the rules that clarified the game had a standard 4 separate rounds.


I should have noted in my reply, the sequence with the 4 parts is shown in the Quick Reference section on the back page of the reference guide.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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The time marker only indicates Day and Night, not Dawn and Dusk, so the way that we play it is this -- let's say the marker is on Tuesday Day and Mina has finished her action. We move the marker to Tuesday Night and then ask around the table if anyone wants to play a Dusk action. Or if a fight is about to occur with Dracula, it happens at that moment. But during the Dusk activities, the marker is sitting on the Tuesday Night spot.

After all Dusk activities, we go back to Lord Godalming for his Night action. After everyone takes a Night action, the Dracula phase occurs. (The marker is still on Tuesday Night.)

At the end of the Dracula phase, if Dracula plays "Darkness Returns", we pick up the time marker and put it directly on Wednesday Night, skipping Wednesday Day entirely. The card says, "There is no day during the next Hunter phase."

So at that point, we would ask the players if they have any Dusk actions to do, because that's what you do when you put the time marker on a night spot.

No Dawn.

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Randal Divinski
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This is another place where imprecise/inconsistent rules terminology has made a mess of things. A good case has been made for each way of handling it.

There is DAY and NIGHT. DAY consists of dawn:day [hunter turn 1]. NIGHT consists of dusk:night[hunter turn 2; dracula turn].

The source of confusion is obvious. You can keep track of DAY and day in the above because I have used formating to differentiate them. The rule book uses both meanings of "day" but with out anything to distinguish which sense they are using.

The same mess happens in reference to "Dracula", which sometimes means the character and other times means all vampires (or the player).

In this case, the card text says: "There is no day during the next hunter phase." From that specific wording, and using my formating to distinguish meanings, I think we can puzzle out why H-B-G is right. The "next hunter phase" is another way of saying DAY during which "there is no day". But the implication is that there is still a dawn. That's the only reason to phrase it that way.
 
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jesse durham

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randomlife wrote:
The time marker only indicates Day and Night, not Dawn and Dusk, so the way that we play it is this -- let's say the marker is on Tuesday Day and Mina has finished her action. We move the marker to Tuesday Night and then ask around the table if anyone wants to play a Dusk action. Or if a fight is about to occur with Dracula, it happens at that moment. But during the Dusk activities, the marker is sitting on the Tuesday Night spot.

After all Dusk activities, we go back to Lord Godalming for his Night action. After everyone takes a Night action, the Dracula phase occurs. (The marker is still on Tuesday Night.)

At the end of the Dracula phase, if Dracula plays "Darkness Returns", we pick up the time marker and put it directly on Wednesday Night, skipping Wednesday Day entirely. The card says, "There is no day during the next Hunter phase."

So at that point, we would ask the players if they have any Dusk actions to do, because that's what you do when you put the time marker on a night spot.

No Dawn.



this was my thought process, but it seems the others in this thread, and the friend i was playing with see it the other way.

lol
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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It's definitely worth getting official clarification, if possible, but I don't know how to do that. Maybe Kevin Wilson?

I always picture Dawn as not really a phase of its own, but as the beginning step of Day. Same with Dusk and Night. This is at least partially reinforced by the rules saying that when a fight occurs during Dawn, players are supposed to consider it as Day, and when a fight occurs at Dusk, players are suppose to consider it as Night.
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H-B-G
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randomlife wrote:
It's definitely worth getting official clarification, if possible, but I don't know how to do that. Maybe Kevin Wilson?

I always picture Dawn as not really a phase of its own, but as the beginning step of Day. Same with Dusk and Night. This is at least partially reinforced by the rules saying that when a fight occurs during Dawn, players are supposed to consider it as Day, and when a fight occurs at Dusk, players are suppose to consider it as Night.


Kevin Wilson had nothing to do with this edition, the lead developer is listed as Frank Brooks.

As mentioned earlier up I think that it is clear that Dawn and Day are separate. The reference guide shows the breakdown of the hunter phase on the back page.

Quote:
Hunter Phase
1. Dawn: The time marker advances on the time track and combat occurs if one or more hunters are in the same location as Dracula.

2. Day: Each hunter performs one action in activation order.

3. Dusk: The time marker advances on the time track and combat occurs if one or more hunters are in the same location as Dracula.

4. Night: Each hunter performs one action in activation order. Hunters cannot perform move actions at night.
 
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Randal Divinski
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I already posted from a rules-puzzle perspective. Now I'd like to look again from another angle, the game effects of each way of handling it.

We have been looking at whether Events (e.g. Long Night) playable only at Dawn can be played. But there are other consequences.

Suppose on Dracula's turn he moved onto a city where a hunter is present. Then he plays "Darkness Returns". Combat will now take place. But is it under conditions of "dawn" (DAY) or "dusk" (NIGHT)?

From a game-logic and thematic viewpoint, dusk/NIGHT makes more sense to me. (This in contradiction to my assertion above based on the card text.)

Another game effect would whether tokens typically removed at dawn would be removed.

Yet another would be, supposing that on the previous dusk there was combat and a hunter was defeated. With no dawn, the respawning at a hospital would be delayed a turn. Hmmm...
 
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H-B-G
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randiv wrote:
I already posted from a rules-puzzle perspective. Now I'd like to look again from another angle, the game effects of each way of handling it.

We have been looking at whether Events (e.g. Long Night) playable only at Dawn can be played. But there are other consequences.

Suppose on Dracula's turn he moved onto a city where a hunter is present. Then he plays "Darkness Returns". Combat will now take place. But is it under conditions of "dawn" (DAY) or "dusk" (NIGHT)?

From a game-logic and thematic viewpoint, dusk/NIGHT makes more sense to me. (This in contradiction to my assertion above based on the card text.)

Another game effect would whether tokens typically removed at dawn would be removed.

Yet another would be, supposing that on the previous dusk there was combat and a hunter was defeated. With no dawn, the respawning at a hospital would be delayed a turn. Hmmm...


With regard to combat, if the argument is that playing Darkness returns means there is no dawn does combat take place at all?
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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I think I'll play them as separate phases then, since they are broken out like that on the back page. So in this case it goes Night-Dawn-Dusk-Night, not Night-Dusk-Night or Night-Night.

I kind of like how that would thematically look, too. The sun starts to rise, but then goes back down, as opposed to just being a double long night. And it is called "Darkness Returns" so that does seem like it must be starting to brighten, but then goes dark again.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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Of course, with Dusk immediately following Dawn (skipping Day), I guess that would mean there would be two combats in a row if Dracula was on a space with Hunters when he played Darkness Returns -- the first with Day rules and the second with Night rules.
 
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Aaron Bredon
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And if Dracula combined Nocturnal Visit with Darkness returns, he could fight twice in a row with Night rules.
 
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Randal Divinski
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randomlife wrote:
Of course, with Dusk immediately following Dawn (skipping Day), I guess that would mean there would be two combats in a row if Dracula was on a space with Hunters when he played Darkness Returns -- the first with Day rules and the second with Night rules.

That would seem to be the case, assuming not all hunters were defeated in the first combat.

But I don't like this implication. So I am fully reversing my original position. I would play it that there is no dawn. It goes directly from Dracula's turn to dusk (and one combat maximum, under night conditions).

At this point, my hunch is that the original intent (on the card) was for there to be a dawn (but no day), but that they didn't really think it through, and the game will function better if it is skipped.
 
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jesse durham

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randomlife wrote:
Of course, with Dusk immediately following Dawn (skipping Day), I guess that would mean there would be two combats in a row if Dracula was on a space with Hunters when he played Darkness Returns -- the first with Day rules and the second with Night rules.
This is why im more inclined to believe you go directly into dusk and skip dawn.
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joekeck
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Ptaco wrote:
randomlife wrote:
Of course, with Dusk immediately following Dawn (skipping Day), I guess that would mean there would be two combats in a row if Dracula was on a space with Hunters when he played Darkness Returns -- the first with Day rules and the second with Night rules.
This is why im more inclined to believe you go directly into dusk and skip dawn.

agreed. My feeling is there's no way they intended dawn combat to be immediately followed by dusk combat.

but in this particular instance, I would be nice and let the hunters play long night during dusk
 
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Dale Wilkins
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The way I view it (and please, convince me I'm wrong) is that Dawn is the beginning of, or "upkeep", of Day. And Dusk is the beginning or "upkeep" of night. Each turn is just two phases and that's why there are no Dawn or Dusk spots on the time tracker. I'd say that if there is no Day there is no Dawn.
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H-B-G
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Everyone here is of course free to play with whatever house rules they wish, but it is clear from the rules as written that Dawn is a separate step in the hunter phase.
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Randal Divinski
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DaveD wrote:
Everyone here is of course free to play with whatever house rules they wish, but it is clear from the rules as written that Dawn is a separate step in the hunter phase.

Yes, but the problem is that sometimes "day" means the step of the hunter phase after the dawn step, and other times "day" refers to the full hunter phase that encompasses both the dawn and day (in the first sense) steps.
 
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H-B-G
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randiv wrote:
DaveD wrote:
Everyone here is of course free to play with whatever house rules they wish, but it is clear from the rules as written that Dawn is a separate step in the hunter phase.

Yes, but the problem is that sometimes "day" means the step of the hunter phase after the dawn step, and other times "day" refers to the full hunter phase that encompasses both the dawn and day (in the first sense) steps.


Looking through the rules I can't see it stated anywhere that "day" encompasses both dawn and day.

I see the section on page 6 of the "Learn to Play" which says the hunter phase contains Day and Night, but reading that section it is clear that it only concerns itself with the hunters taking actions and that is indeed confined to day and night. No mention is made of hunter combat against Dracula which takes place at dawn or dusk. Just because it is stated that the hunter phase contains day and night, that does not preclude it containing other things.

Set that against the statement on page 10 of the "Learn to Play" that "During the hunter phase, dawn occurs before day and dusk occurs before night." which is repeated on page 6 of the reference guide, also the table on the back of the reference guide (quoted further up this thread). All of these clearly indicate that Dawn and Day are separate.
 
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Davy Ashleydale
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One of the reasons I think there's no Dawn in this situation is that after Dracula plays the "Darkness Returns" event, I would physically pick up the time marker from the Tuesday Night spot and put it on Wednesday Night. It would just seem weird to me to play a Dawn phase while the time marker is sitting on top of a Night spot.

If there were Dawn and Dusk spots on the time tracker between the Day and Night spots, I would totally take the time marker off of Tuesday Night and put it on Wednesday Dawn. We would then have a Dracula fight and/or players would play their Dawn event cards. Then I would skip over Wednesday Day and move it to Wednesday Dusk.

I've sent FFG this question through their contact form on their web site. I don't know how responsive they are, but we'll see.
 
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joekeck
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keep in mind that darkness returns is a dracula card
therefore it must do things that are good for dracula

if it doesn't skip dawn, drac may have to do 2 combats in a row, one of them being a day combat (bad for drac)
however, drac can usually avoid this negative outcome by choosing to not move into a hunter's city during that turn
it would be nice if the card could help drac initiate a night combat, but 'nocturnal visit' already does that (yet it does more than that - all daytime vampire encounters will also be resolved as though it is night)

if dawn is skipped, heavenly hosts wont be removed (bad), but drac can choose not to play darkness returns when HHs are in his way
defeated hunters wont respawn at hosptials (good for drac, but sounds a bit OP to me. Not to mention demoralizing and no fun for that player to have so much downtime)
the card is already powerful enough - it takes all the hunters day actions away (4 fewer actions means the equivalent of two full turns are lost, but its probably more than that because they usually will be unable to do any movement - their most important action), AND did we forget all discarded Dracula event cards are shuffled back into the deck? I did

so now I'm reversing my original position
(yet i started this post with the intent to reinforce my position!)
I'm leaning towards not skipping dawn
the card should do good things for drac, but skipping dawn is potentially too much good / OP



but also consider that the word 'day' has multiple meanings
day and night make up the 24 hr period also known as a 'day'
if I'm not mistaken, IRL dawn is often considered part of day and dusk is part of night
so if the game considers dawn to be a part of day, then they probably didn't feel the need for the rulebook to explain it since that's how it already is IRL *
plus there is no dawn or dusk spaces on the time track, only day and night
and day combat happens during dawn
these things indicate that the game may very well consider dawn to be a part of day (depending on which 'day' definition is being used in any given sentence anywhere in the game or rulebooks - like how the places that say 'dawn happens before day' are using a different definition)
to paraphrase randiv:
dawn + day = Day
dusk + night = Night
Day + Night = DAY
dawn + day + dusk + night = DAY
dawn is part of Day, and night is part of DAY


*reminds me of how Doctor Who has never felt the need to define the word 'incarnation' because it was already defined in something called 'the dictionary', yet a lot of whovians think that after a time lord uses a regeneration, he is in a new incarnation even if he still has the exact same body, face, & personality. Capaldi is the 13th - not 14th - incarnation, people!! and hes the 12th doctor and 13th regeneration
sorry for the tangent
 
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jesse durham

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randomlife wrote:
One of the reasons I think there's no Dawn in this situation is that after Dracula plays the "Darkness Returns" event, I would physically pick up the time marker from the Tuesday Night spot and put it on Wednesday Night. It would just seem weird to me to play a Dawn phase while the time marker is sitting on top of a Night spot.

If there were Dawn and Dusk spots on the time tracker between the Day and Night spots, I would totally take the time marker off of Tuesday Night and put it on Wednesday Dawn. We would then have a Dracula fight and/or players would play their Dawn event cards. Then I would skip over Wednesday Day and move it to Wednesday Dusk.

I've sent FFG this question through their contact form on their web site. I don't know how responsive they are, but we'll see.
id like to know their response if they ever come back with one.
 
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Randal Divinski
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DaveD wrote:
randiv wrote:
DaveD wrote:
Everyone here is of course free to play with whatever house rules they wish, but it is clear from the rules as written that Dawn is a separate step in the hunter phase.

Yes, but the problem is that sometimes "day" means the step of the hunter phase after the dawn step, and other times "day" refers to the full hunter phase that encompasses both the dawn and day (in the first sense) steps.

Looking through the rules I can't see it stated anywhere that "day" encompasses both dawn and day.

However, we are told that on all combat cards, the word "night" is to be read as meaning "dusk or night". In the rules they may treat them separately, but not on the combat cards.

This was a poor design decision. So much better if they had written "dusk or night" when that is what they mean rather than asserting that "night" means both.

That is taken to an absurd extreme with the Escape as Bat card, which has this text: "If it is night and Dracula was in the combat, you may..." which could better be stated as "If it is Dusk, you may...".

All this leads one to suspect that the cards were printed before the concept of Dusk and Dawn were introduced to the ruleset.
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