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Yokohama» Forums » General

Subject: MM selling deluxe Yokohama at $39, TMG clarifies. rss

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Mr Lee
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I was being alerted to this.

I wonder how many KS backers feel played out and screwed over with this preorder price by MM.

Thoughts?

Note: apparently TMG stated that they would only be making sufficient quantity for KS backers, replacement copies and conventions. Really didn't expect this.

Edited thread title to reflect MM's sale of Yokohama (before they corrected it), and that TMG has provided clarification on the matter.
 
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Sam Leung
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Shucks. Must be a mistake! The pledge i had was abt 90 or soemthing, i joined a group pledge but are we certain the compoments are the same?
 
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Garry Rice
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Here is the response from the KS comments:

Quote:
Well, the deluxe version doesn't exist yet. Neither Miniature Market nor even TMG have copies. The Deluxe version won't be available via normal distribution, which means if they have it in the future, they'd have to have gotten it via the kickstarter, and 39.00 would mean they're selling it at a loss.
It's important to remember that other vendors can put whatever they want on their websites, and often it's just placeholder information. Do not rely on such information - this includes release dates, prices, player counts and time ranges. and so forth. For instance, that Miniature Market listing has an entirely made-up SKU (TTT-YOK). I suspect that page will morph into a listing for the regular game as it gets closer to release.


Seems to me MM is jumping the gun with the description or they are selling copies they bought thru KS at a loss.
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Nick Case
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
It's not the first time this has happened and it's the reason I now refuse to back Kickstarters from established companies pushing established products that have a pedigree that guarantees sales.

The well trodden retort at this is usually that 'you don't seem to understand what Kickstarter is for'. Well my take was that is was set up for small enterprises or individuals to get advanced funds to make their project happen. Without that funding it just plain wouldn't happen. This just doesn't apply to the established companies like Queen and TMG for games with a confirmed demand. These games would definitely have happened, its just the big guys like the idea of having $100,000's, a year before their customers get their goods.

The logistics of delivering these orders which are 1000% of target goal causes them major problems and backers are forced to wait for months after non backers pick their games up for $less at conventions and retail. The promises are always that the KS offering is unique. It never is.

Of course none of the above applies to Jamey Stegmaier. That is a man who has nailed KS business. The fact that he has and does it so well, just shows what a shower the rest are.
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Nick Case
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
MM are prepared to take your money for this now. OK there is no delivery date but the KS doesn't have that either. Offer, acceptance and consideration is all there so a contract exists. MM can't reduce the advertised game down to a standard (non deluxe) version as suggested by the creator on KS. I'm thinking that these are words to try and avoid a stampede of refund requests.
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M.C.Crispy
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
I find it hard to believe that this isn't a mistake on MM's part. Given what's in the deluxe edition, I find it hard to believe that it could be offered at such a low price. Of course, if it turns out to be genuine this will be the last TMG KS that I support - I could buy from MM and import to UK for less than my KS pledge! (not that it's all about price). But I think MM has screwed up.
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Jimmy Hensel
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
MM's listing for this also says:
Quote:
Image, contents, and release date are subject to change.


So if the contents are subject to change, maybe it's just the standard version which would be more in line with the price. The KS price for that was $45 with a hefty shipping fee.

If MM's listing is for real (the KS deluxe edition), like y'all, I'm hugely disappointed.
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Nick Case
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
pawnpusher wrote:
MM's listing for this also says:
Quote:
Image, contents, and release date are subject to change.


So if the contents are subject to change, maybe it's just the standard version which would be more in line with the price. The KS price for that was $45 with a hefty shipping fee.

If MM's listing is for real (the KS deluxe edition), like y'all, I'm hugely disappointed.


Just because they've written that, don't make it so. The definition of the 'Deluxe Edition' is expressly established. It's the basis of the offer and once money is sent that's the basis of the agreement. There is no material change if the art work on the box gets tweaked but they cannot just decide to downgrade the contents to a basic edition quoting the 'subject to change' caveat.
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Chee Peng Ang
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
There is no reason for MM to sell it at a loss. It would not have listed it if it had not secured copies from TMG at a special discount. It put it up for preorder cos TMG didn't ask them not to. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure things out. How you react to this and whether we learn that as a lesson is another story.
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Garry Rice
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
angatheart wrote:
There is no reason for MM to sell it at a loss. It would not have listed it if it had not secured copies from TMG at a special discount. It put it up for preorder cos TMG didn't ask them not to. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure things out. How you react to this and whether we learn that as a lesson is another story.


You can make up whatever story you want, but this is not what TMG has responded (see the quote above). I suggest before you make any conjectures perhaps an email to MM might be in order to find out if they indeed did make a mistake in their listing before outright accusing TMG. TMG's response makes alot of sense to me.
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Darren
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Being from Canada, purchasing this pre-order from Miniature Market right now including the FedEx shipping fees of $25.50 would have cost me $64.50 USD.

I paid $73 USD during the Kickstarter ($60 plus $13 for shipping). This is very disappointing.

During the Kickstarter (July 15th) Michael Mindes said in the comments section retailers would be able to purchase limited amounts (4 or 8 copies) per physical location to sell. According to Miniature Markets web info they have 6 physical locations so that means 48 copies in total? That lines up with the 20+ in stock and is no big deal but the discounted price does not add up as they would be selling at a loss... (which makes no sense as mentioned above). TMG made no mention of the retailers getting a break on the $60 price everyone was paying. TMG mentioned a $80 price tag for the deluxe version post Kickstarter on the same day shortly after the original comment posting. The $39 USD price tag by MM (a discount of $21 USD off the $60 Kickstarter price) is very sad for all kickstarter supporters.

This really has me second guessing supporting any future kickstarters by TMG as I feel really deceived.

Edit: Hopefully it is an error as I really do like what TMG has done in the past. I shall wait for a verified response.

Edit 2: It appears from TMG's view that MM has incorrectly posted the Deluxe version instead of the retail version for the lower price. I feel better now.
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Chee Peng Ang
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
I am merely pointing out the half truths in whatever that has been said.

Why should it be any surprise to anyone that MM is capable of selling it at $39 without incurring a loss.

Why they choose to do so is a mystery.

If you have verified with MM that it is a listing mistake which it might well be, please let us know instead of hurling useless accusations that do not add to the discussion.
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Bob D
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
angatheart wrote:
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure things out.


Apparently one does because the amount of fevered, factually groundless speculation is amazing. I realize the Internet is the promised land for conspiracy theorists and the easily outraged but currently there is a) no precedent for this at all (Orléans Deluxe was never distributed) and b) goes against all provided information thus far.

If TMG is actually being duplicitous, it'll come to light soon enough. Then everyone can boycott, demand refunds, or just vent on BGG all they want and it will be completely justifiable. Or, you know, it could simply be a mistake?

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Garry Rice
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
I've emailed MM...we'll see if they respond.
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Chee Peng Ang
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
I have ordered 2 copies to test things out. I will update here if MM cancels it and gives me full refund.
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Kok Tiam Tsai
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
tmg's reply does not make sense. Why will any retailer sell pre-order item at a loss?
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A Huynh
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
koktiamtsai wrote:
tmg's reply does not make sense. Why will any retailer sell pre-order item at a loss?


Their reply means that they are not offering the game to any retailer at a lower price than the kickstarter price.
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Y P
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Big Bad Lex wrote:
It's not the first time this has happened and it's the reason I now refuse to back Kickstarters from established companies pushing established products that have a pedigree that guarantees sales.

Perhaps in your rush to judgment you could have taken a moment to consider the possibility that this is simply an error on MM's part. It's the most logical possibility at this point.

Quote:
MM are prepared to take your money for this now. OK there is no delivery date but the KS doesn't have that either. Offer, acceptance and consideration is all there so a contract exists. MM can't reduce the advertised game down to a standard (non deluxe) version as suggested by the creator on KS. I'm thinking that these are words to try and avoid a stampede of refund requests.

But MM can (and likely will) simply say it was an erroneous listing and refund your order. Let's not get all in a twist before knowing all the facts.
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Chris Meeusen

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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
I think we should just settle down a little, it's all speculation at this point. And if it is..oh well.
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Alex Singh
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
zekks wrote:
I think we should just settle down a little, it's all speculation at this point. And if it is..oh well.


How dare you be so reasonable!
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Nick Case
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
MentatYP wrote:

Perhaps in your rush to judgment you could have taken a moment to consider the possibility that this is simply an error on MM's part. It's the most logical possibility at this point.


There is no rush to judge, my words are statements of fact. If it is 'simply an error' then MM have spent the last 9 hours doing noting to correct it. I've just checked and they are still taking money. I'm pretty sure they would be aware of a problem like this by now, ....assuming of course that it is a mistake, and would have corrected it. Only time will tell eh?

MentatYP wrote:

But MM can (and likely will) simply say it was an erroneous listing and refund your order. Let's not get all in a twist before knowing all the facts.


We do know the facts. That is all I am commenting on. Your belief that this is all a mistake 'and likely will' result in wholesale refunds is the statement that has no foundation at this moment in time. We can all guess as to what might happen next, how about we just stay on track and deal with what HAS happened?
 
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A Huynh
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Here is the most recent reply on the KS from TMG:

Quote:
@Everyone, We have not sold any Deluxe editions of Yokohama to Miniature Market. I know cause I've been handling all of the retailer pledges. The listing that Miniature Market has for Yokohama Deluxe is wrong and we've reached out to them to change it to "Retail Version" or something to that effect. Their listing is for the retail version. Hopefully this clears the air.
-Aaron


Is that enough of a "fact" for you.
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Big Bad Lex wrote:
MentatYP wrote:

Perhaps in your rush to judgment you could have taken a moment to consider the possibility that this is simply an error on MM's part. It's the most logical possibility at this point.


There is no rush to judge, my words are statements of fact. If it is 'simply an error' then MM have spent the last 9 hours doing noting to correct it. I've just checked and they are still taking money. I'm pretty sure they would be aware of a problem like this by now, ....assuming of course that it is a mistake, and would have corrected it. Only time will tell eh?

MentatYP wrote:

But MM can (and likely will) simply say it was an erroneous listing and refund your order. Let's not get all in a twist before knowing all the facts.


We do know the facts. That is all I am commenting on. Your belief that this is all a mistake 'and likely will' result in wholesale refunds is the statement that has no foundation at this moment in time. We can all guess as to what might happen next, how about we just stay on track and deal with what HAS happened?

Let's be frank. You have prior negative experiences with KS projects that have colored your judgment. The most applicable prior experience is TMG's Orleans Deluxe. It was a KS and convention exclusive true to their word during the campaign. Their track record with Deluxe editions (admittedly only 1 for 1 so far) indicates that there is as of now no reason to think that this isn't a simple mistake on MM's part.

You mentioned this:
Quote:
Offer, acceptance and consideration is all there so a contract exists. MM can't reduce the advertised game down to a standard (non deluxe) version as suggested by the creator on KS.

AFAIK you have more stringent laws in the UK about this type of thing. U.S. companies have and will continue to cancel orders on erroneous listings. That is another reason why I'm interpreting this as an MM error instead of TMG malfeasance.

So yes, my opinion and speculation is rooted in facts. Both of us have presented possible scenarios, but I believe mine is at the moment more plausible considering prior history.

But as you said, time will tell. I'm simply urging us to not rush to have pitchforks in hand. Believe me--if this turns out to really be the Deluxe version for $39 I'll be the first in line with a pitchfork. I just don't think there's enough there yet to justify the indignation and outrage.
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Big Bad Lex wrote:
MentatYP wrote:

Perhaps in your rush to judgment you could have taken a moment to consider the possibility that this is simply an error on MM's part. It's the most logical possibility at this point.


There is no rush to judge, my words are statements of fact. If it is 'simply an error' then MM have spent the last 9 hours doing noting to correct it. I've just checked and they are still taking money. I'm pretty sure they would be aware of a problem like this by now, ....assuming of course that it is a mistake, and would have corrected it. Only time will tell eh?

MentatYP wrote:

But MM can (and likely will) simply say it was an erroneous listing and refund your order. Let's not get all in a twist before knowing all the facts.


We do know the facts. That is all I am commenting on. Your belief that this is all a mistake 'and likely will' result in wholesale refunds is the statement that has no foundation at this moment in time. We can all guess as to what might happen next, how about we just stay on track and deal with what HAS happened?
If we're going to get pedantic and antsy about things... you make several unfounded assertions in your first post and express your opinion on - amongst other things - the purpose of Kickstarter and the nature of logistics for KS projects.

You can't have it both ways dude, you shouldn't invite discussion by expressing an opinion then refuse to tolerate a response by claiming that you were making irrefutable statements of bald fact.
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Matt Krakoff
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Re: Deluxe Yokohama on sale via MM as a preorder at $39?!
Looks like the whole thing has been debunked anyway at this point. Looks like everyone can calm down?
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