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Legends of Andor» Forums » Rules

Subject: Effect of Runestones in Combat rss

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J A
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Hello fellow Andor enthusiasts!

The rules say: if a hero carries 3 different-coloured runestones, he may replace 1 of his coloured dice with a Black die in combat.

How exactly does this work for the different characters?

- if the Wizard uses the runestones: he uses a black die (instead of his regular purple die)

- if the Archer uses the runestones: he rolls 1 black die (one roll only, and none of his regular green dice). This is confirmed by the game designer himself here:

Michael Menzel wrote:
Dear Ropo

If the Archer carries the three runes is able to use the black die instead of his own dice. He rolls it just one time.


kind regards
Micha


But what about the Warrior and the Dwarf? Do these heroes simply remove 1 die from their regular dice-pool and replace it with a Black die?

For example,

- if the Dwarf had a Willpower of 7, would he roll 1 yellow + 1 Black dice?

- if the Warrior had a Willpower of 14, would he roll 3 blue + 1 Black dice?

Would they, as usual, then use their highest dice value to determine their combat value? Wouldn't this usually end up being the value of the Black die? (unless the Helm is being used, I suppose ; the sum of multiple identical dice might be higher than a low roll with the black die).

One thing at least is clear to me: the power of runestones cannot be combined withe Witch's Brew or Herbs, because the stones occupy all 3 spots for small objects on the player mats!

Thank you so much for your answer to my question!



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Harv Veerman
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In fact it is slightly different: the hero carrying the runestones exchanges all of his/her dice for the one black die. In combat, that black die is rolled one time, and one time only.

I think it is explained on the legend card in legend 2.
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J A
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OMG! soblueBut the (French Iello, 2013 edition) rules specifically say:

"Il peut remplacer un de ses dés de couleur par le dé noir pendant les combats"
= the player may replace one of his regular-colorer dice with the black dice in combat

To me that really sounds like he rolls his regular dice pool but replaces 1 coloured die with the black die (before rolling, of course). This of course would apply only to the Warrior + Dwarf.

Are you sure about what you are saying concerning the Warrior and the Dwarf? It would be nice to get a confirmation of this!

Thanks for your response!
 
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J A
Canada
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Confirm that: I just checked the Legend 2 Runestones card, and it is consistent with what is written in the rules book ( at least in the Iello 2013 edition):

"Tant qu'il possède les Pierres Runiques sur sa fiche, il peut remplacer un de ses dés par le dé noir pendant les combats"

= as long as he is in possession of the runestones, the player can replace one of his dice by the black dice in combat


My 2 cents: this makes sense to me, and anyway, why would Mr. Menzel go to the trouble of specifying that the Archer using the Runestones rolls 1 black die only (see above) if it applied to all the characters equally?


[It would still be nice to have an official ruling, but that's probably hoping for too much... ]
 
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Harv Veerman
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From the Dutch version:

as long as he is in possession of the runestones, the player receives one black die. In combat, this black die replaces all of his own dice.

I'll look into it further...


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Alexander Steinbach
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You replace all of your dice with 1 black die. This is confirmed in the original German rules, the Dutch rules, the latest English rules, and by Michael Menzel himself. The version of the French rules that you possess obviously has a typo or a translation error.

The rune stones are designed for the wizard. Don't try to equip them on the warrior or dwarf. They don't combine with the helm and can't be used with the witch's potion.
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J A
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Could you please provide the existing ruling by Mr. Menzel that you refer to, or at least quote (cut/paste) it here?

And I know that the Potion doesn't combine, as to the Helm, well that's exactly the point, it would combine for the Warrior and the Dwarf if my reading of the rules on this matter is correct!
 
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Alexander Steinbach
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According to the German rulebook:

Solange er die Runensteine auf seiner Tafel
hat, darf er im Kampf diesen schwarzen Würfel anstatt seiner eigenen
benutzen.


Emphasis original. This should be enough proof.

The file can be found here.

As to the quote by Michael Menzel, it is the one you have quoted as well. He responded to a specific question regarding the archer. I guess it would've been better if he had answered more generally.
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J A
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... I mean "combine the Helm" in the sense that:

If a warrior wearing a Helm and in possession of the Runestones were rolling 3 blue + 1 black dice and rolled

3 4 4 6
and the Wizard in group combat changed the 3 into 4,
then the Warrior would choose his best result, namely 12 rather than the black 6 (a 6 flipped to a 10 is still less than 12)
 
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Harv Veerman
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Vardaine wrote:
According to the German rulebook:

Solange er die Runensteine auf seiner Tafel
hat, darf er im Kampf diesen schwarzen Würfel anstatt seiner eigenen
benutzen.


Emphasis original. This should be enough proof.

The file can be found here.

As to the quote by Michael Menzel, it is the one you have quoted as well. He responded to a specific question regarding the archer. I guess it would've been better if he had answered more generally.


Beat me to it

See page 6.
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J A
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Well thank you for backing up you claim: I guess the answer is pretty clear from the German rules, and as we all know the original-language rules must be considered to have precedence over all translations, of course! I guess something got messed up between the Kosmos and the Iello editions.

I'm a little disappointed though cry, I kinda liked the idea of having a little more choices to make when this artefact is used by the Warrior or Dwarf...

Happy gaming!
 
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J A
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OMG!, update! update! devil

Out of curiosity, I just checked the Thames Kosmos website to read the rules, and it is consistent with the Iello rules (please check it out for yourselves!):

"As long as he has the rune stones on his board, he may use this black die instead of one of his own." (my emphasis)

So that's the official English AND French editions saying one thing, and the German and Dutch editions saying another!

WEW! What should we do?????????

My friends, I think this definitely calls for an official ruling by the game designer himself to resolve this important point of confusion/contradiction, in the interest of all Andorrans!


My 2 cents: Iello and Thames Kosmos are both 2nd editions (if I'm not mistaken), perhaps there has been an official revision/clarification since the first German edition...


Perhaps Wolfram, who is active in this forum and also in the German forum, might care to contact Mr. Menzel on our behalf...
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Harv Veerman
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Vardaine wrote:

Solange er die Runensteine auf seiner Tafel
hat, darf er im Kampf diesen schwarzen Würfel anstatt seiner eigenen benutzen.



Solange er die Runensteine auf seiner Tafel
hat, darf er im Kampf diesen schwarzen Würfel anstatt einer eigenen benutzen.


See what I did here? Very likely a typo or translation error.
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Peter vP
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Legends of Andor is from a German designer. I'd say German rules take priority here as those are closest to Menzel's own words. The black die is supposed to replace all normal dice.
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J A
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Madmath and Vardaine, if you are correct (and that may well be the case), that means that the community of English and French speaking gamers out there that plays Andor (and the game is popular!) has got it wrong.

This warrants an official ruling, perhaps even an erratum by the game editors...
 
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Alexander Steinbach
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Caylusboy wrote:
Madmath and Vardaine, if you are correct (and that may well be the case), that means that the community of English and French speaking gamers out there that plays Andor (and the game is popular!) has got it wrong.

This warrants an official ruling, perhaps even an erratum by the game editors...


I can agree about that. But it is the French and English publishers who are at fault here. So it's them who need to make an erratum for this. The German rules are the ones written by Michael Menzel and to me are proof enough that, indeed, all English and French players are playing by the wrong rules. While a statement of Michael would be nice, the facts are clear.
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Wolfram Troeder
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Hi all,
I normally try to answer all rules questions concerning Andor on my own. I am a first day Andor player and very active in the German Andor community as well as playing Andor very actively.
I can confirm that the original German rules and all statements from Micha Menzel in the German forum state that
The runestones replace all dice of the hero.
I.e. that the hero may decide to use the black die instead of all his own dice.

Nevertheless I contacted Micha and am confident that he will comment here.

Until then, keep calm and play. It's just a game.
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Wolfram Troeder
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Vardaine wrote:
You replace all of your dice with 1 black die. This is confirmed in the original German rules, the Dutch rules, the latest English rules, and by Michael Menzel himself. The version of the French rules that you possess obviously has a typo or a translation error.

The rune stones are designed for the wizard. Don't try to equip them on the warrior or dwarf. They don't combine with the helm and can't be used with the witch's potion.


You have some more options for the 3RS.
All heroes with either
just one or two dice or
long distance weapons, initial or equipped,
profit statistically from the 3RS.
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J A
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Vardaine wrote:
Caylusboy wrote:
Madmath and Vardaine, if you are correct (and that may well be the case), that means that the community of English and French speaking gamers out there that plays Andor (and the game is popular!) has got it wrong.

This warrants an official ruling, perhaps even an erratum by the game editors...


I can agree about that. But it is the French and English publishers who are at fault here. So it's them who need to make an erratum for this. The German rules are the ones written by Michael Menzel and to me are proof enough that, indeed, all English and French players are playing by the wrong rules. While a statement of Michael would be nice, the facts are clear.


@ Vardaine: agreed, by "game editors" I meant the English and French publishers. An erratum by them would be called for.


@ Wolfram : thank you for sharing your reading of the rules and contacting the designer! We impatiently await to hear from Michael Menzel!
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Michael Menzel
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Hi everyone,

thanks Wolfram for contacting me.
So the correct answer is:
A hero who carries the 3 runestones may use a black die instead of his own dice. In most cases that makes sense, but a warrior with helmet may say:"No, this is my lucky day! I throw all my blue dice, allthough I'm carrying those runestones!" and maybe he rolls 4x a 6 :-)



By the way: A few years ago I tried to answer rulequestions even on BGG, too. But with the tavern of Andor, the german Forum, it became simply too much effort.
But if you have an urgent question, you may also use the tavern.
http://legenden-von-andor.de/forum/index.php

Everyone there understands english and you'll recieve very quick answers.


Kind regards
Micha

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J A
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Thank you Mr. Menzel for taking the time to settle this question for us! I own the French Iello edition of Andor and am happy that this error in the French rules has been cleared up. Perhaps I will spread the word on Tric Trac

Happy gaming all!
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