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Dimitri Sirenko
Canada
Vancouver
BC
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Hey guys and gals!

So we finally have a print ready prototype that we want to have as many people to lay their eyes and hands on. This is card game about thieves set in a world similar to our medieval age but with hints on magical items that existed long time ago. Please give us as much feedback as possible. We need feedback on Rules/wording and how easy it is to understand. We also need feedback on game design and theme. Please follow these links to see the PDFs.

plays 2-6 people, best with 3-5
30-60 mins gameplay

Rule Book
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9PaBZjdwUAaZlBnVlNlNFVlWT...

Print and Play (line art treasures)
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9PaBZjdwUAaZWlzeE5xbEtGVW...

ALSO
If you do end up printing and playing it PLEASE fill out our short questionnaire found here:
https://goo.gl/forms/EAJ5RW82OleRZ9VJ2


Thank you BGG community!!!ninja
 
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Dimitri Sirenko
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anyone? lol, we are really in need of feedback from people that aren't all local to us.
 
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BT Carpenter
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Observations:

1/ A "round" consists of revealing 1 treasure card, bidding, cleanup and redraw. There are 33 treasure cards, so this means there are 33 rounds I'm committing to if we play. That is a lot of rounds.

2/ At the end of a round I can either:
2a/ Draw cards (up to 2, hand limit 5)
or
2b/ Discard 2 cards and then draw 2 cards (hand limit not important because I didn't get any "new" cards.

Why would I discard? I should always be more willing to play a card out than discard it, and cards bid are spent even if they didn't win, which is effectively discarding junk cards for possible benefit, or at least to up a bid to make someone else pay more.

3/ Mission sets are very specific and have no overlap, meaning there is no competition for my Mission set cards, other than they are worth normal points and/or set bonuses.

4/ The existence of 'steal a treasure' cards is upsetting. It means I can spend a large number of resources (skill cards) to obtain a valuable thing (part of my mission set) in order to have it lost to a single resource (steal treasure skill card) that can only be mitigated by *another* specific resource (anti-steal resource card).

5/ PDF "backing" pages, you only need one of each, not multiple treasure or skill card backs, and the mixed "mission" and "action" sheet is just a bad idea, I'd stick to just one backing card type per page.

6/ Skill Distribution:
1: 21
2: 19
3: 15
4: 6
5: 4
Steal Treasure: 4
Steal Card: 6
Anti Steal: 3
Negate Special: 3
x2 Skill: 3
Discard all Skills: 3
Discard Card: 3
Destroy Treasure: 1

The "take that" elements of the game (steal, discard, destroy) are too prevalent and I will feel dominate the game.

That said, the treasure cards seem to help mitigate that, but I still really dislike 'take that' games.
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Dimitri Sirenko
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Vancouver
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byronczimmer wrote:
Observations:

1/ A "round" consists of revealing 1 treasure card, bidding, cleanup and redraw. There are 33 treasure cards, so this means there are 33 rounds I'm committing to if we play. That is a lot of rounds.

2/ At the end of a round I can either:
2a/ Draw cards (up to 2, hand limit 5)
or
2b/ Discard 2 cards and then draw 2 cards (hand limit not important because I didn't get any "new" cards.

Why would I discard? I should always be more willing to play a card out than discard it, and cards bid are spent even if they didn't win, which is effectively discarding junk cards for possible benefit, or at least to up a bid to make someone else pay more.

3/ Mission sets are very specific and have no overlap, meaning there is no competition for my Mission set cards, other than they are worth normal points and/or set bonuses.

4/ The existence of 'steal a treasure' cards is upsetting. It means I can spend a large number of resources (skill cards) to obtain a valuable thing (part of my mission set) in order to have it lost to a single resource (steal treasure skill card) that can only be mitigated by *another* specific resource (anti-steal resource card).

5/ PDF "backing" pages, you only need one of each, not multiple treasure or skill card backs, and the mixed "mission" and "action" sheet is just a bad idea, I'd stick to just one backing card type per page.

6/ Skill Distribution:
1: 21
2: 19
3: 15
4: 6
5: 4
Steal Treasure: 4
Steal Card: 6
Anti Steal: 3
Negate Special: 3
x2 Skill: 3
Discard all Skills: 3
Discard Card: 3
Destroy Treasure: 1

The "take that" elements of the game (steal, discard, destroy) are too prevalent and I will feel dominate the game.

That said, the treasure cards seem to help mitigate that, but I still really dislike 'take that' games.



thank you! Thats definitely useful feedback to think about

 
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Dimitri Sirenko
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byronczimmer wrote:
Observations:

1/ A "round" consists of revealing 1 treasure card, bidding, cleanup and redraw. There are 33 treasure cards, so this means there are 33 rounds I'm committing to if we play. That is a lot of rounds.

2/ At the end of a round I can either:
2a/ Draw cards (up to 2, hand limit 5)
or
2b/ Discard 2 cards and then draw 2 cards (hand limit not important because I didn't get any "new" cards.

Why would I discard? I should always be more willing to play a card out than discard it, and cards bid are spent even if they didn't win, which is effectively discarding junk cards for possible benefit, or at least to up a bid to make someone else pay more.

3/ Mission sets are very specific and have no overlap, meaning there is no competition for my Mission set cards, other than they are worth normal points and/or set bonuses.

4/ The existence of 'steal a treasure' cards is upsetting. It means I can spend a large number of resources (skill cards) to obtain a valuable thing (part of my mission set) in order to have it lost to a single resource (steal treasure skill card) that can only be mitigated by *another* specific resource (anti-steal resource card).

5/ PDF "backing" pages, you only need one of each, not multiple treasure or skill card backs, and the mixed "mission" and "action" sheet is just a bad idea, I'd stick to just one backing card type per page.

6/ Skill Distribution:
1: 21
2: 19
3: 15
4: 6
5: 4
Steal Treasure: 4
Steal Card: 6
Anti Steal: 3
Negate Special: 3
x2 Skill: 3
Discard all Skills: 3
Discard Card: 3
Destroy Treasure: 1

The "take that" elements of the game (steal, discard, destroy) are too prevalent and I will feel dominate the game.

That said, the treasure cards seem to help mitigate that, but I still really dislike 'take that' games.



we found that even when playing with brand new players 33 rounds never went on past 1 hour play time so we never really looked at that as a potential issue but hopefully when we get more people testing we can be more sure whether that can be an issue or not

Discarding at your own choice is designed for hand management purposes. It brings in another aspect of strategizing where if you do have ALL cards that are really good in your hand and you choose not to pick up anything at the Draw stage then people can make note of that and predict that most likely you have a stacked hand. ALternatively if you have a lot of cards in your hand but they do not fit your strategy or they are just weaker than others you can take a chance and try to get somthing better by essentially switching them with new random cards

The mission sets is something we definitely had to go back and forth on. Initally we had overlaps. But it started imbalancing the game because some players may end up with overlap as opposed to one player that gets a unique mission card that essentially does not overlap with others. And so that felt unfair that 2 people could be going at it for the same treasures while this one guy is just doing his thing and getting his mission done with less competition. We playtested with and without overlap and found that the competitiveness of the game did not suffer from having no overlap. We also playtested another idea where the mission is global and everyone can see what they need but everyone needs the same thing. This worked but was not exciting enough. We wanted a small element of initial mystery as to what each player needs. Also we wanted to make it so that even if you dont need a specific treasure for YOUR mission, but you know someone else does you can potentially stop them from getting it. So it would be a preventative strategy.

As far as steal cards go. At first we had steal cards that would only be triggered by sacrificing a certain amount of skill points. For example we had it setup that if you want to steal a common treasure you'd need to spend 2 skill points, uncommon - 4, and rare - 8 skill points. But when we tested it a lot of times we felt like the steal treasure became too risky and felt a bit complicated in terms of a mechanic thats why we decided to just have that steal card have no cost to play/cast. But to balance that out we introduced more negating cards. 3 negate cards as well as prevent steal cards can all stop the steal card. And while i agree that it is a very powerful card, it felt balanced just because it was again, about your hand management. So if you are smart at strategizing you would make sure you always have one or two negate or prevent cards at all times and hold on to them just in case. Is there a better way to make this work? We really do not want to use dice in our game since we strongly feel that the fact that you draw random cards is already enough luck factor and introducing dice would only drive our costs up and make the game even more random.
 
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BT Carpenter
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I'm not sure how being 'smart at strategizing' can influence the deck to give me more "negate" cards, especially when there are relatively fewer of them in the deck than the cards they are preventing.

I'm not sure how being 'smart at strategizing' can cause the "negate" cards at the bottom of the deck to appear at the top, in a place I can draw them, but my opponents cannot.

I'm not sure how being 'smart at strategizing' can stop the second theft card from breaking my high point set after I already used my first negate on the first theft attempt.

Please educate us on how we can be 'smart at strategizing' such luck-driven deck-shuffle style events. Holding a special reduces my hand size, hindering my ability to gain more treasures, which I'll just lose to specials anyway.

You're correct that adding another element (dice) to perform some form of "chance the steal fails" would just worsen the situation, because now you have a card that has potentially no value when it fails due to some form of die roll.

26 of your 100 cards are 'specials'. 36/100 are 'specials' if you include the scant "4"s and "5s" in that category. Of those cards, 6 are "negators" and the rest are outright theft or denial type cards.

The treasures/powers thing looks interesting, but the base game is such a turn-off that I'm not willing to dedicate materials or time to crafting a set or bringing this to the table.

The last person to steal something wins it. Because of the fixed number of turns in the game, everyone knows when the end is near. Ultimately, the game seems as broken as some of the other 'take that' games that have come to market, sputtered out and died.


 
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Dimitri Sirenko
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byronczimmer wrote:
I'm not sure how being 'smart at strategizing' can influence the deck to give me more "negate" cards, especially when there are relatively fewer of them in the deck than the cards they are preventing.

I'm not sure how being 'smart at strategizing' can cause the "negate" cards at the bottom of the deck to appear at the top, in a place I can draw them, but my opponents cannot.

I'm not sure how being 'smart at strategizing' can stop the second theft card from breaking my high point set after I already used my first negate on the first theft attempt.

Please educate us on how we can be 'smart at strategizing' such luck-driven deck-shuffle style events. Holding a special reduces my hand size, hindering my ability to gain more treasures, which I'll just lose to specials anyway.

You're correct that adding another element (dice) to perform some form of "chance the steal fails" would just worsen the situation, because now you have a card that has potentially no value when it fails due to some form of die roll.

26 of your 100 cards are 'specials'. 36/100 are 'specials' if you include the scant "4"s and "5s" in that category. Of those cards, 6 are "negators" and the rest are outright theft or denial type cards.

The treasures/powers thing looks interesting, but the base game is such a turn-off that I'm not willing to dedicate materials or time to crafting a set or bringing this to the table.

The last person to steal something wins it. Because of the fixed number of turns in the game, everyone knows when the end is near. Ultimately, the game seems as broken as some of the other 'take that' games that have come to market, sputtered out and died.




i am sorry, i didn't mean to offend you by saying "be smart at strategizing". Basically in other words the game obviously has a luck factor but I don't necessarily think that it is a bad thing. To be honest just about 90% of card games are very similar in its luck factor as long as they have card drawing and most card games DO have card drawing as one of their main core mechanics. What i meant by smart strategizing is that this game is essentially a bidding game where you choose whether you want to perform an action or not. Which means that you can strategize and build your hand accordingly over a course of a few rounds. So if you burn your whole hand and steal bunch of stuff and get the treasure in play and you are left with no cards you will only draw 2 cards for next round. So in that example you have to be smart about managing your hand and not go all out unless you really really want or need a particular treasure. Even though the cards you draw are random does not mean that you will be stuck with the cards you don't even use. Thats why when it is a draw phase and you have 4 cards for example you can choose to pick up just one or get rid of one and pick up two. Same with 5 card hand. You can potentially discard 2 cards from your hand and get two new cards during the draw phase.

I dont really understand how whoever steals the last treasure wins? I wont deny that it is a possibility but the chances of that happening are not as high as you might believe.

Another reason why we felt that action cards that sway game play actually work well in this game is because it is meant to be fast paced game that puts pressure on the players in making decisions and predicting what can happen next. We actually deliberately want that. We want the game to be competitive and we want to evoke those emotions in people. A game does not always have to be just rainbows and butterflies especially if it is competitive and if you get upset that your treasure was just stolen that is exactly how it was intended to work.

I do not think it is fair of you to claim the game is extremely broken based on your personal preference(you just dont like those type of games) and the fact that you have not played it. It is one thing to just imagine how it plays and try to predict what would work and what wouldnt but to outright say everything is broken without trying it is the same thing as if you designed a game and then without playtesting it you "imagined" that it is perfect and then claimed that it is not broken in any way. I am not saying we can't improve this game by any means but i am just trying to understand why you feel this would be so broken. To me it seems like it's just a personal thing rather than constructive. I mean it is to be expected, some people will love the game and some won't but again I don't know if I'd go as far as saying the game is broken. For example i think exploding kittens, munchkin and cards against humanity are all games that I personally do not like. If i were to look at them from a designer point of view though I could see how a huge amount of people actually love playing those games and even though a lot of stuff seems completely broken in those game TO ME i cant necessarily claim that as the absolute truth.

I guess the challenge for us is to accept all types of feedback and then decipher what it is that is accounting for that type of feedback. Of course if we get feedback and playtests from like 50 different people and 30 of them are saying what you said then I can definitely see how maybe we are just delusional in thinking this current mechanic can work well.
 
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Dimitri Sirenko
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Update:
getting a good amount of playtesters in our local area. Gathered some valuable feedback on wording issues and some small mechanic improvements. Hoping to get more feedback from BGG community soon!
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Dimitri Sirenko
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Some artifact/treasure artwork i made for your viewing!





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martin
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Wow! The artwork for this game is amazing....Very impressive. Keep up the good work I will be following this game closely (subscribed)
 
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Dimitri Sirenko
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melbards wrote:
Wow! The artwork for this game is amazing....Very impressive. Keep up the good work I will be following this game closely (subscribed)


thank you!
we just did a lot of new changes to address issues with the game design and make the game a lot more fun! More artwork is done too. I will be posting an update towards the end of this month
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Dimitri Sirenko
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melbards wrote:
Wow! The artwork for this game is amazing....Very impressive. Keep up the good work I will be following this game closely (subscribed)


Some other art ive done recently!


Necro Shield



Unicorn Horn
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