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Cosmic Encounter» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tripler and Joker and other when revealed sheninagans combined rss

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Risto Sarja
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We played a messy, but really fun game with the Tripler, Joker and the Warhawk.

So Joker says: After encounter cards are revealed, for each on the matches the current wild card, use this power. Joker is mandatory.

Tripler says: As a main player, after you reveal an attack card, use this power to adjust its value. If the card's value is 10 or less, triple the value. If the card's value is more than 10, divide its value by three. Tripler ability is mandatory.

Warhawk says: As a main player, when your opponent reveals a negotiate card, use this power to change it into an attack. Warhawk ability is mandatory.

So what if Tripler is the offense and plays 08, that is also the wild card from joker?
Offense goes first and his attack card is tripled to 24 and then joker gets to use his ability ? What happens to Joker's ability, does it override the tripler's ability completely?

What if Tripler is the offense and plays a negotiate that warhawk changes to 0 and the joker's wild card is 0?
I recall that Bill said that if all players have mandatories, then offense goes first, then defense and then allies and so forth. So if it goes like this it would mean that Tripler ability goes to waste since he has a negotiate. Then warhawk changes the number to 0 and then joker changes the 0 to his liking. Or how does this happen ?


Cheers.
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PJ Cunningham
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I believe, within each phase, the order in which powers are invoked determines when they occur. If two or more players speak up at the same time (or no one speaks and they all have mandatory powers), then you break the timing impasse by giving preference to offense, then defence, then allies.

Meltyman wrote:
So what if Tripler is the offense and plays 08, that is also the wild card from joker? Offense goes first and his attack card is tripled to 24 and then joker gets to use his ability ? What happens to Joker's ability, does it override the tripler's ability completely?

Unless the Joker spoke first, I'd rule that the Tripler's power changes the value of the card so that it no longer matches the wild card, and therefore the Joker's power could not be used.

Meltyman wrote:
What if Tripler is the offense and plays a negotiate that warhawk changes to 0 and the joker's wild card is 0? I recall that Bill said that if all players have mandatories, then offense goes first, then defense and then allies and so forth. So if it goes like this it would mean that Tripler ability goes to waste since he has a negotiate. Then warhawk changes the number to 0 and then joker changes the 0 to his liking. Or how does this happen ? Cheers.

Resolve in order of who speaks first. Obviously this won't be the Tripler or the Joker because their powers don't effect Negotiate cards. So if the Warhawk also played a Negotiate, they must use their power to make both cards Attack 00. Assuming no one speaks up, the Tripler's power would activate at this point, tripling their 00 to 00, followed by the Joker using their power on both cards (in whichever order they like). If the Joker speaks up before the Tripler, however, the outcome would be different.
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Jefferson Krogh
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With Tripler, the card is still an attack 08, but it now has a value of 24. So it would still match a Joker token of 08.
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Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
With Tripler, the card is still an attack 08, but it now has a value of 24. So it would still match a Joker token of 08.

Right. Joker goes by ink value, not modified value.

So Tripler reveals the current wild card (whatever it is). Joker changes it to whatever he changes it to, and then it is either tripled or thirded, as appropriate.
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Just a Bill
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Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
With Tripler, the card is still an attack 08, but it now has a value of 24. So it would still match a Joker token of 08.

I disagree. The card is now an attack 24, and an attack 24 is not an attack 08. If what you wrote is true, then I think you'd have to accept that a Negotiate changed by Wild Pacifist into an attack 15 could still earn compensation, or still trigger a deal. The whole point of Phil's "ink rule" was to stop all the broken, messy stuff like that.

In fact, your interpretation leads us right back into those kinds of ambiguities, because the very next question is this: Okay, so after Joker changes the 08 that became a 24 into an 04, is the 04 now tripled since the tripling hasn't actually been realized? Or worse yet, if Joker changes it into a 15, is the 15 tripled to 45? Since the modified value of 24 was really considered still an 08 to determine how Joker's power applies, why wouldn't the modified value of 45 similarly really be considered still an 08 to determine how Tripler's power applies?

I'm not advocating that hypothetical interpretation; I'm just trying to point out that I think you guys are both interpreting the "ink rule" in a way that seems to me contrary to what I understood the consensus to be.

Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Joker goes by ink value, not modified value.

I don't see how. Joker's effect is directly relevant to the encounter outcome, so all Joker cares about is whether or not the card is an attack 08 when it's his turn to use his power. A morph that copies an 08 is now an 08. An 08 mirrored into an 80 is no longer an 08.

The whole point of your ink rule was that things which are directly relevant to the encounter outcome need to read the current value, while things which are independent of the encounter outcome should read the ink. This is what resolved all the messes on both sides of the razor, and made most of the interpretations match our intuition about what "should" happen.

Am I forgetting something about the "ink rule"? None of what I'm reading here is sounding right to me.
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Johann Gambolputty
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Unless otherwise specified, game effects that strictly affect encounter resolution — meaning those effects that impact encounter card types/values, kickers, reinforcements, main player totals, the method of determining the winner and loser, deals, compensation, rewards, and disposition of the involved ships such as landing on the planet, returning to colonies, going to the warp, etc. — all refer to the card's current, modified type/value. Every other kind of game effect refers to the card's original, printed type/value (a.k.a. its "ink").


Don't Joker's tokens affect encounter resolution? Or does Joker still apply to the ink because Tripler changes the value of a card, but not the actual card?

If it's the latter, then am I correct that if Joker chose Attack 00 as the wild, he would be able to play a token on a negotiate revealed by the other main player in an encounter vs. Warhawk?
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Just a Bill
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t20a1h5u23 wrote:
Don't Joker's tokens affect encounter resolution? Or does Joker still apply to the ink because Tripler changes the value of a card, but not the actual card?

If it's the latter, then am I correct that if Joker chose Attack 00 as the wild, he would be able to play a token on a negotiate revealed by the other main player in an encounter vs. Warhawk?

Your first sentence is correct, but your second paragraph is in conflict with your first sentence unless you meant to say former instead of latter. If Joker applied to the ink (which I do not believe it does), wilds being 00 would not match an N.
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Johann Gambolputty
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Bill Martinson wrote:
t20a1h5u23 wrote:
Don't Joker's tokens affect encounter resolution? Or does Joker still apply to the ink because Tripler changes the value of a card, but not the actual card?

If it's the latter, then am I correct that if Joker chose Attack 00 as the wild, he would be able to play a token on a negotiate revealed by the other main player in an encounter vs. Warhawk?

Your first sentence is correct, but your second paragraph is in conflict with your first sentence unless you meant to say former instead of latter. If Joker applied to the ink (which I do not believe it does), wilds being 00 would not match an N.


What I meant was that Tripler states that it changes the value of the card, while Warhawk states that it changes the card itself. I also see no reason for Joker to apply to ink, but it looks like there's a disagreement about the difference between the value and the identity of a modified card.

I don't think that the value of a card vs. the identity of the card should be separated, but that's what the other responses in the thread seemed to be saying. Based on that idea, Tripler (and kickers) could change the value of a card, rather than modifying it's actual identity. It looks like most powers/cards that affect only attack cards refer to values, but powers/cards that affect negotiates do not.

Tripler should make an attack 08 into an attack 24, not an attack 08 card with a value of 24.



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Jefferson Krogh
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The problem with Joker is that it doesn't use the word value at all, rather unlike many other aliens that are concerned with the specific number on the attack card. (Additionally, it says you may name any other attack card to be the new wild. "Other" must be referring to "other than attack 08," which is not what we intended, if I remember correctly. Argh.)

In hindsight, perhaps we should have rephrased it so that Joker's player may declare any attack card value as the new wild. That would make it clear that we're not talking about the physical ink on the card, and bring it more in line with other aliens that are concerned with the numeric value.

If Joker was meant to look a physical copy of an attack card, it would have used the same wording as The Claw. Nonetheless, it's all too easy to read Joker as intending to check the physical card, rather than the card's value.
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Just a Bill
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t20a1h5u23 wrote:
I don't think that the value of a card vs. the identity of the card should be separated, but that's what the other responses in the thread seemed to be saying.

I don't think they should be separated either. What's the purpose of saying a card's identity is 08 but its value is 24? They have to be the same. Otherwise wouldn't all kinds of things like Emotion Control degenerate into messes, where we are trying to reconcile that the card's "value" is Negotiate but its "identity" is still Attack 12? That sounds like the player has still "revealed an attack card" but its "value" is Negotiate. It sounds very confusing to me and I don't understand what the purpose of this would be.

Seems a lot simpler to distinguish between a card's printed identity/value vs. its current or modified identity/value.

t20a1h5u23 wrote:
Based on that idea, Tripler (and kickers) could change the value of a card, rather than modifying it's actual identity.

In 35-ish years I've never thought that a kicker actually changed the value of an attack card. I've always thought it was multiplied along with the attack card "on the way to" calculating the total.

I say this because of the multifaceted outcome of a kicker. It does three mutually exclusive things that apply at different times; the available "modes" of the kicker are separated by ORs, not ANDs. This all implies that you have to wait until all the dust has settled to determine which mode applies.

If you want to say instead that the kicker is applied immediately to the encounter card upon first reveal, rather than being a modification that's waiting to happen at the appropriate time after the mode is known, then here are a few consequences of that view:

• If you do anything that changes your attack card into a better attack card, the kicker is lost because it was already applied and "used up."

• If Emotion Control is played, your kicker will not double your opponent's losses because it was already "used up" doubling your attack card that is no longer an attack card.

• Kickers would never enhance Ethic's special compensation, because the kicker was used up on doubling the attack card.

t20a1h5u23 wrote:
Tripler should make an attack 08 into an attack 24, not an attack 08 card with a value of 24.

I agree. The latter seems unnecessarily hair-splitting.

Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
The problem with Joker is that it doesn't use the word value at all, rather unlike many other aliens that are concerned with the specific number on the attack card.

Why would this matter? I don't think it was intended that "value" has a special meaning that's somehow distinct from the card's identity. Is there some evidence for this?

Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
(Additionally, it says you may name any other attack card to be the new wild. "Other" must be referring to "other than attack 08," which is not what we intended, if I remember correctly. Argh.

I read it as "other than its current setting," but I guess it could have been worded better: new, different, something like that.

Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
If Joker was meant to look a physical copy of an attack card, it would have used the same wording as The Claw. Nonetheless, it's all too easy to read Joker as intending to check the physical card, rather than the card's value.

I can't tell whether you're saying it was or was not intended to read the ink, but I don't see how it can do anything other than read the current state of the card. (Otherwise, among other consequences, a Morph could never match the wildcard.) That's the ink rule that I thought we had consensus on.

Maybe I need to understand why you are saying a card's value and its identity are two different things. That's confusing the crap out of me.
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I'm not invoking the Ink Rule here at all. I'm only talking about the Joker's specific power - it deals with wild *cards*, not wild *values*. Joker doesn't change a number into another number, it changes the value of a wild card.

Tripler plays an 08 (the current wild card), Joker changes it to a 15, which is greater than 10, so it is divided by 3 and becomes 05.

Tripler plays an 08 (the current wild card), Joker changes it to a 04, which is less than 10, so it is tripled and becomes 12.

Tripler plays an 08 (the current wild card), Joker changes it to a N, which is not an attack, so it remains an N.

No contradiction.
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Risto Sarja
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Well it's pretty obvious if you think it in that order.

But if Tripler is the offense and neither one wants to do their thing first, it means tripler has to do his first IF it was an attack card.

I think it's logical that if tripler triples his number, then if the resulting number isn't the wild card's number, joker does nothing to tripler.

 
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I'm not convinced the Timing Rule necessarily applies when both powers are mandatory. With mandatory powers, it's not a question of "both players wanting to do something", it's a matter of powers having their effects automatically, regardless of what the players want.

In the case of the Joker specifically, it seems obvious that the card itself is wild, not the possibly-modified value.

For some cases, there may not be any reason for one mandatory power to happen first, so maybe the Timing Rule (or something like it) might be the only recourse. But in many cases, one power, by its description, is more logically applied to the ink value, or the card itself, or must go first, or last, or has something that specifies a logical place in the order of operations.

And I would say the same thing with regard to Mirror's wild card. Remember: the designated wild card is known in advance. You know when you select the card whether it's a wild card you're selecting. And you also know which value tokens the Joker has available. Nothing is sprung on the Tripler or the Mirror, or anyone else, by surprise.
 
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Risto Sarja
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Making exceptions to the timing rules makes it more confusing though.

The joker works better against tripler when joker is the offense and tripler works better against joker when tripler is the offense, why is this a bad thing, i don't know.

They both operate on the reveal, so it isn't a given joker gets to use his power right away no questions asked.

EDIT: i'm sure there are many examples where this thinking with the joker getting to do his thing first will mess up the system, maybe i find them for this conversation some time soon
 
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OK, nevermind my first paragraph in my previous post. I've been distracted lately.

But this game is really all about the exceptions. The Timing Rule is a Rule. And the powers and other effects are always exceptions to the rules. Just like Loser specifically happens after all other effects - regardless of the Timing Rule - it doesn't matter whether Loser is offense or defense.

And the Joker is about wild *cards*, not about wild *numbers* - it doesn't matter whether Joker is offense or defense.
 
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