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Subject: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Components Ready rss

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Apollo God
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A-Maze-Mint - the dungeon crawl that fits in your pocket

The Savouries have attacked from a far off cave and kidnapped some fellow Sweeties. The peaceful citizens of Lollipopia are distraught. They are all so wonderful and sweet how could anyone be so sour toward them? Volunteers, Heroes! have come forward to rescue their friends and get to the bottom of this bitter plot.

Now in the Components Ready phase (as if you couldn't tell) and it is a 1-2 player co-op dungeon crawler with several cards used to create the dungeon as you explore it. Eventually you will fight the big Boss but once it is defeated the dungeon starts to collapse around you so you have to hurry to get out again.

Designer: Aaron Reading
#Players: 1-2
playtime: approx. 30mins
Components:

30 large cards:
18 cave cards
4 hero cards
4 class cards
4 boss cards

24 mini cards:
24 savoury cards

3 tokens
3 paper clips (for tracking life)
2 D6 dice (preferred 2 colours but you can just roll separately too)

Files (current version 0.2):
Rules
Cards Are finally here!
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James Ronald Lo
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Count me in for play testing. I'm always down for some dungeon crawling
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Laughing Lizard Games
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Count me in for play testing
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Oh wow. I'm not really used to an audience. I guess I'd better get a wriggle on. Thank you both I really appreciate your support.

I tend to use these as a designer diary so everyone can see my thoughts and how the game gets shaped.

So here is my current thinking:

it will be for 1 to 2 players (so always 2 characters) playing against the game. exploring the cave until they find the big boss. Once the boss is defeated the cave starts collapsing (each cave card will have a number) starting with card 1.

there are going to be 2 sizes of cards, large cards ("Biz" size according to that chart that was in the mint tin thread) and roughly half size or "Micro" cards for the bad guys.

Most cards are going to be the dungeon or cave, probably cave and will have 2 rooms each (if you've played Caverna think like the 2 room excavations tiles). This is why the bad guys need to be half size, so they block the room.

Several other large cards will be the character cards. I'm currently thinking 4 races (each with starting health, strength and agility also possibly a race related skill (still TBD)). these will be vertical. Then I'll have some class cards that will be horizontal and slide behind the character cards in a L shape. this will keep track of you leveling up easily and means you can try multiple different combinations of race and class.

Bad guys are going to have a couple of uses. firstly they are bad guys and block the room until they are defeated. Once that happens the character collects it and can spend it to level up (you may need several for higher levels) or use like a potion for a once off skill boost or healing (depending on the bad guy).

In keeping with the spirit of the tongue-in-cheek nature of the name, boosts in agility are pepper and boosts in strength are spears. I'm thinking of having the different characters as different lollies/candy. any ideas for what the bad guys could be?

hopefully my daughter will sleep tonight and I can get to work sketching out some cards.
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Robert B
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Subscribed!
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Well some progress at least. My daughter did get some sleep (teething the poor thing) so I had some time to make a start on the dungeon and figure out the rules regarding the construction of it(see below).



There have already been some slight changes since this image but you can see that the cards will be able to go horizontal and vertical which I thought was cool.

I've also given some thought to the story/theme. I'm going to go with a candy land kind of theme so all the heroes are different types of sweets (yes one will be a mint), I'm thinking also a gummy bear and I'll think of two others later. And the bad guys are savory snacks (muesli bars, rice crackers (although I think these have sugar in them anyway)) and 1 possible boss ... a deviled egg.
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Laughing Lizard Games
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
I really like the idea, In regards to ideas you could have olives and nuts as bad guys as well.

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Andrew Orel
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
This sounds like a great idea! I'm keen to playtest.
I especially like the crumbling cave escape!
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Stu Turner
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Count me in for playtesting
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hi All

Well, until I saw how large my audience has gotten I thought I was doing ok, now I feel pretty slack. I have not gotten any further with the cards or graphic design. but I have been able to puzzle out more about how the game will work.

So everyone knows that each dungeon card will have between 1 and 2 rooms on it and each room will have between 1 and 4 entrances/exits. I like the idea of variety this gives and means that the process of building the dungeon will be rich and varied.

I've given it a lot of thought and will have traps written on the rooms while monsters will be "encountered" upon entering a room and drawn from a deck. The idea being that traps are always there and will/should slow you down (by using up your agility and/or strength).

I haven't played nor designed many dungeon crawls so I'm finding the characters to be a bit of a challenge. I want this to be simple and straight forward but I also want the characters to feel different too. This is difficult when working with limited stats. Not to mention the different classes so I want a character (like the mint (extra strong)) to feel/play different if you use the "rogue" like class than the "mage" like class.

From the above paragraph you can probably deduce that each character (type of sweet/lolly) will have some minor ability/boost. Each class will give another ability (like disabling traps or increases in strength). I'll have some of this going shortly I've only just started drawing up the cards for them.

Rest assured this game is moving forward. I'm giving myself a deadline of next week to have my first full playtest done. I'm also going to try and update this every week so you all know my progress. feel free to tell me to pull my finger out if you think I've been slacking (which I probably have that's why I've publicly announced a deadline).
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hello everyone still reading this.

Apollo1111 wrote:
I'm giving myself a deadline of next week to have my first full playtest done.


What I should have written is "my first mechanism test". This I have done and so far things are looking good. As far as pencil on paper can look good. I haven't said this yet but I am no artist. You'll see when I eventually put the cards up.

I am working on those too. The graphic design is taking shape, the lack of space is frustrating because I'm unsure what a good font size is for such small cards. and I'm using a lot of icons. Thank you game-icons.net!!

Because I'm using icons for several things, and a general lack of space, I think I'm going to have to abandon the fun idea of pepper for agility potions and spears for strength potions. There is the distinct possibility of confusion so I'm going with the same icon that is used on the heroes. That also really only worked for mints and not other types of lollies/sweets.

I'll post something soon about the sweet, sweet heroes.
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Caroline Berg
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Excellent! One can never have too many dungeon crawls.
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hello All

Thanks for joining me again. This has been an interesting week with some ups and downs.

For my first test last week I just mocked up about 5 bad guys, this week I've upped that to 22 to check out different levels of bad guys and the effect of leveling up the characters. this has worked well and also helped flesh out the combat in the game.

Here is the first hero! (these numbers are not fully tested yet and are subject to change)


Like I said there is not a lot of room but I think everything makes sense. the flexing arm is strength, the boot is agility, the shield is defense, the hearts are total life and the green box is this hero's racial ability.

So you can see that the hero has some base stats that line up at the bottom and will match the class card that will slide behind it. It then becomes simple math to see how much strength, agility and defense you have at each level.

Speaking of classes, here's what one will look like (again these are preliminary numbers and subject to change)



So being a Wizard they generally have low strength right? the thing here is the abilities in the bottom row. as you can imagine you can look at your character and see what abilities are available at that time. I have yet to decide how many times special abilities can be used in a turn there will need to be some kind of limit.

Please let me know what you think.

forgot to mention the bad news. I now have an altoids mint tin! Yay! how can this be bad news you say. Well the card template I've been using turns out to be a little bit to long so I have to re-do everything I've done to this point which is going to take a while to fix. This won't effect playtesting though so I'll get the whole game tested to a point that I'm cool with it then make the changes to my template.
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Andrew Orel
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Looking good so far Apollo.

Those tins are always smaller than one remembers...
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Laughing Lizard Games
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Looks good, Icons are defiantly obvious. Hope the play testing goes well!
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hello once again.

Playtesting is proceeding. Tweaks are being made and rules are being written.

Initially I had 18 cards that make up the cave, however during subsequent playtests I've found this to be too much for every game. So now the player/s shuffle them up and remove 4-6 face down. I'm leaning towards 6 but I guess it doesn't matter that much and I'll write it into the rules as a variant anyway (to play with all of them).

I've found this to be good for variety since you don't play with all the cards every time and it can also effect the last stage, the cave collapse.

The 22 minor bad guys now no longer keep coming back. By that I mean once they go to the "bad guy discard pile" they don't get shuffled in again. This prevents people gaming the system where by they just kill heaps of stuff, stockpile potions then go after the bad guy and kill him in one hit then make an easy escape all in one turn. It also adds an interesting decision, do I hold on to the potion or level up my character? It may be that I need more than 22 but testing hasn't shown this number to be a problem so far...

There have been several minor tweaks to characters stats and I still need to come up with some good abilities for the fighter class. it might be that I don't need to though. The Rogue class only has 1 ability.

I've been avoiding the big bosses so far. I'm not sure where to go with these. I want to make more than one so it's not always the same and the same tactic won't work each time. I've been considering one that runs away whenever a hero comes into the room but this could get very frustrating and even impossible with a bad hero/class combo. maybe have it run away once hit...

Another that calls forth minions so not only do you have it but a couple of savouries you've already killed spawn in the room with it.

I'm going to try and have a first draft of the rules ready next week.
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Laughing Lizard Games
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Apollo1111 wrote:

I've been avoiding the big bosses so far. I'm not sure where to go with these. I want to make more than one so it's not always the same and the same tactic won't work each time.


I think that is a good idea, will defiantly increase the replay ability.

Apollo1111 wrote:

I've been considering one that runs away whenever a hero comes into the room but this could get very frustrating and even impossible with a bad hero/class combo. maybe have it run away once hit...


I think that run away once hit will be less annoying for the heros, while being sufficiently annoying at the same time, however i guess the thing to do it play test it and see how it all works out!

Looking forward to your next update!
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hello All

Well I need to start with saying I'm sorry. I don't have the rules fully written yet. Normally I have a nice amount of down time at work to do things like this but work has just been full on (which is why I didn't enter the solo comp this year), and forget about home. This game is turning out to be even harder to design than my first solo game.

I'm just not finding the time to playtest until very late at night and have actually fallen asleep while playing. Not to say it is boring or that I'm giving up. Improvements are happening, the rules are over half written.

I think a lot of the difficulty I'm having is articulating things rather than actual gameplay which I consider intuitive and straightforward.

I'm having a bit of trouble with the crumbling cave. when some character/roll combinations are at max they can get through nearly all of the cave in 1 turn. that's not what I want, I want another puzzle to solve. there are several options I'm looking at but it's playtesting them that is a problem. I'd love to get the files up but knowing my template is too big I've got to redo everything again which I've just said is difficult to find the time.

I'm going to stop before I get too whiny. Rules done by next week, cards soon after!
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Laughing Lizard Games
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
I fully understand the difficulty of designing a game and dealing with real life at the same time. I also find i do a lot of the work late at night. You can do it! and i know you will already know this, but if you need to sleep sleep, you will be more productive the next day if you do! I sound like my mum there......

Anyway best of luck! looking forward to your next update
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
RULES, RULES, RULES edit: old rules removed.

Hello my friends!
Boy am I happier this week. I got a massive 3 playtests in and I am now very happy with the majority of the core mechanisms. There's still the end game that I need to iron out though so I'm working on it. The bosses are pesky and pretty annoying to get right.

In case you missed it the very first draft of the rules are now up. Please be kind, I know there's a ways to go with them. Any feed back will be most welcome, I know it's a little hard with no pictures.

Laughing Lizard Thank you so much for your support and kind words. I truly appreciate it.

This is going to be a tough week for me, I'm attending a conference all week so I don't know how much I'll be able to get done for a version of the cards. Still it's all starting to take shape!
 
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Robert B
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
I enjoyed reading the rules and look forward to the game.

The main issues I noted were related to the text rather than the rules themselves - items that are normally cleaned up in revisions:

Savouries are sometimes capitalized and sometimes are not.

Text after the colon on the actions is sometimes capitalized and sometimes is not. "EXPLORING: this is done..."; "MOVING: This is done..."

Class card is capitalized on pg 2, but lower case in the components section.

Cave cards is sometimes capitalized and sometimes not. Same with Boss in the ESCAPE section.

All of the above are easily revised; just normal proofing issues.

Looking forward to the cards!
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Cards are finally here!(edit: old cards removed)

Hello everyone who has stuck through. Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU! As you can tell I've put the cards up. Now I need to put a bit of a warning on this, these are just according to my current testing and are in no way final. The Heroes and Class cards are unlikely to change much but the boss cards are mostly un-tested (haven't tested 2 of them yet) so they will definitely change.

I'm also still testing the cave collapsing and it may prove that there are too many 1's and 2's so that may also change.

As you can see there is little to no art. Since this is still very much in testing I haven't bothered yet but that is something I'm hoping to get around to before the end of the contest. Although I want to look at others games and comment on them too...

I'm in a bit of bind since, last week I was at a conference (very long days!) and I'm going on a holiday for a week and a half when I will also be off-line. This is both good and bad. Bad in that I won't be able to provide my usual updates or get any feedback, good in that I should be able to do a lot of testing while away and may even have cards much closer to the finished product.

Robert, thank you very much for your feedback. I'll have that fixed up in the next version.

I just realized that I haven't said how many savouries spawn with the Deviled Egg. this should be 4. Sorry guys.
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hi Apollo,

Beware, long rant and detailed criticisms incoming. I hope I will provide useful advice and not get your hopes down.

I was waiting for this one, so I promptly printed it and gave it a try this afternoon. I forgot to set aside 6 cards from the cave deck, indeed it was a bit long but nothing too serious I think.

There were a few mechanical issues.
- The micro cards back and front were badly misaligned, so I accidentally cut off nearly all of their bonuses. It may be related to my printer, but the big cards aligned well, so I'm guessing there's an issue with your last page's margins.
- Another issue is that Biz cards are not exactly twice as long as they are large, so when mixing horizontal and vertical placement this results in misalignments in the long run. Too bad because that was a nice feature, so maybe you should use a custom proper size.
- Keeping track of how many strength/agility points you've spent this turn can be a bit tedious. Especially since you modify them occasionally with bonuses, and in certain circumstances (combat...) you still refer to the base value. Maybe use dice or tokens, that you reset at the beginning of your turn ?

The rules could use some work, but I understand they are only preliminary. Some specific points that are not addressed and should be in a later version :
- should all exits of the newly placed tile match exits on adjacent cards, or only with respect to the room you are in ?
- what to do if the tile you draw cannot be placed correctly ?
- is solo supposed to be played with one or two characters ?
- is the cost of evading traps replacing the usual movement cost, or does it add to it ?

The game flow did not feel stressful enough : since I can stop my turn whenever I want (except in combat but then I can stop it before entering a room with savouries), what it the point of having turns and consumable ability points ? I'm better off facing every possible danger with my full stats. Maybe at least the exploring action should force the player to enter the newly placed tile directly.

About combat : maybe my character was overspecialized (Rogue Gingerbread man, so he had plenty of agility), but I never had any issue with an enemy. Either I could kill it in a single blow (using bonuses if needed), or I just had to flee to another room and find a lesser opponent. So leveling up was just a matter of going through the enemy deck until I had found suitably leveled enemies in the right order. I lost against Deviled Egg, but just because I did not have the resources to kill all his minions in a single blow (two were levels 3 and 4), so the remaining ones deprived me of my defense and he just had to finish me off.

About collapsing finally. It felt a bit weird that the lair is numbered 5 since it's the very first room you'll leave. Also, it seemed a bit easy to lay a circular path around the entrance, getting rid of 1/2 tiles on the outer border of this path, so that I ended up placing the lair near the entrance and with a "shortcut" to get out. But maybe that's because I've used all of the cave cards, and 18-6 would not be enough to close the circle.

All in all, I'm afraid I was a bit disappointed, probably because I was expecting much from your preliminary description. Maybe it's not a good idea to combine two games (dungeon crawl / escape collapse) in a single one, because then you need to oversimplify both of them to keep it manageable, but then the result lacks substance. I'm sure there's room for making something really fun if you develop more elaborate mechanics for the collapsing subgame for instance.

I'll keep following this thread, I want to know where this goes !
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Apollo God
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Wow, Thank you Benjamin! that is not only the quickest but also the most detailed feedback I have ever received.

Quote:
There were a few mechanical issues.
- The micro cards back and front were badly misaligned, so I accidentally cut off nearly all of their bonuses. It may be related to my printer, but the big cards aligned well, so I'm guessing there's an issue with your last page's margins.
- Another issue is that Biz cards are not exactly twice as long as they are large, so when mixing horizontal and vertical placement this results in misalignments in the long run. Too bad because that was a nice feature, so maybe you should use a custom proper size.
- Keeping track of how many strength/agility points you've spent this turn can be a bit tedious. Especially since you modify them occasionally with bonuses, and in certain circumstances (combat...) you still refer to the base value. Maybe use dice or tokens, that you reset at the beginning of your turn ?

You are correct with everything you have said. In a rush I hadn't bothered to get the micro cards aligned properly, I sincerely apologise for this and will have that fixed in the next version. I too have had to put up with gaps in my dungeon but have kind of ignored it so that I can get the game out, I agree it might be better to abandon a specific size and do a custom job that still fits in the tin (something I've been thinking about for a while). I have also had this keeping track problem but only when they are at a high level, but I put it down to me being very tired at the time of testing.

because of the size restriction I've deliberately tried to avoid using dice or tokens. I'll consider changing this.

Quote:
- should all exits of the newly placed tile match exits on adjacent cards, or only with respect to the room you are in ?
- what to do if the tile you draw cannot be placed correctly ?
- is solo supposed to be played with one or two characters ?
- is the cost of evading traps replacing the usual movement cost, or does it add to it ?

New cave cards are placed to match only the room you are in. Dead ends are part of the cave as it is meant to be maze-like. I've never had a problem placing a cave card with this in mind. You always play with 2 characters, I have made this clearer in the next version of the rules.
That is a very good question and one I am still unsure about, at the moment it is replaced (this is a problem then because you can "move" by using strength not agility) It may be that I will have to change this to add, in which case most traps will go down by 1 to accommodate.

I have not tried the Rogue Gingerbread man. I can imagine that with that much agility you are running around everywhere triggering encounters with everything too slow to hit you. I'll definitely try it out but I recon with 2 characters the second one will change things.

you have given me a lot to think about, once again thank you so much for all your feedback.
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Re: [WIP] A-Maze-Mint - 2016 Mint Tin Design Contest - Idea Phase
Hello party people.

Wow what a holiday. which really didn't feel like a holiday because after Benjamin's feedback I had a lot to think about and fix. He was right. There was very little to no tension it was all very mathy and difficult to keep track of everything. Changes needed to be made.

So the first day on my holiday I hunted around for some dice and was trying to figure out how they could work with what was already established.

I have done this (though still not completely finished) and (if I am permitted to say) the game is much better. I've only just gotten back and have a crap tonne of work to catch up on but I will be re-doing the cards and rules and have the revised version up as soon as possible.
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