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The Horus Heresy: Betrayal at Calth» Forums » General

Subject: Why GW? Why? rss

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Roberto Ranieri
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I apologize for the English level, first, but this is something i need to write down before give up with that (can be) wonderful game.
I play miniature and 40k for years then, due my "ehmmm" mature age i begin to slide to boardgames. When B@C coming up i read about it on the forums and i see lot of people buying it just for the miniature loot... well...

THEY WERE WRONG!!!

Under that ton of miniatures there was a good, no... wait, a marvelous ruleset that bring to life again the agonizing world of 40K (30K... whatever). Even the children on the miniatures forum say that, BGG give a 8.1 to this "board game", many people around the world say "wow... is actually a very good game!".

And GW?

As usual... does nothing, no.. does worst! A sequel... maybe... with different rules, who knows? Let me explain how i see a support on this game with the minimum effort:

New action/tactical cards for new factions (easy)
Single formation or heroes cards within the miniature boxes (Eldar? Orks? anyone?) to play at B@C too (damn... even an agonizing Rackham does that for Confrontation and Hybrid the board game)
Mounted boards? Or news Hex blocks? Or Hex with scenery to change the table layout? (ri-damn...look at FFG guys! or GMT! is not too difficult)

Only this few and really economic expansions can make the difference... a big one! More boxes, more armies, more money... dear GW.
Well, i had to wrote that and you (im talking to YOU! GW) need to support your games, because there are very precious gems (space hulk anyone?) and you dont let them shine.

Ok, now i barricade myself at home waiting for the GW assassins! Bye everyone!



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Kevin Outlaw
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It is a great game.

Are you aware there has been support in White Dwarf magazine? There has been three scenarios, a state card for an Ultra-smurfs dreadnought, and a points system that allows you to mix up the teams for the original scenarios that came in the box (adding termies to the the bad guys, etc.).

It's not the same as an expansion, but it's something.

It will be interesting to see if the next big box uses all the same rules, and if there is any way to integrate them.
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Mark
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I could not have said it better...in English. I could not have said it at all in Italian.

Nice post, and right on.
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Hugh Wyeth
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I think GW board games are essentially a way for them to repackage miniatures at a discount. The fact that they occasionally put a decent game in as well is really just luck. It would be good if they switched this approach now they split with FFG and actually support games and bring expansions, especially as they've brought back specialist games, but you never now. Most of GW's business decisions in the last 15 years have made absolutely no sense from the outside.

How cool would it be if along with B@C they brought out mini expansions with more miniatures for both sides so we get more customisation, another one with some more tiles for more variety and another one with an additional race? I don't know if it's just their inability to see the potential in their board games, or they don't think they'll sell, but it's very frustrating. Other than the new warhammer quest, you just know the game you buy is all you're going to get. It's even more bizarre when you consider the games like Space Hulk, which sell out within days every time they reprint it. Why not print enough for demand and then bring out expansions? Everyone would buy them!
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Roberto Ranieri
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hughwyeth wrote:
How cool would it be if along with B@C they brought out mini expansions with more miniatures for both sides so we get more customisation, another one with some more tiles for more variety and another one with an additional race? I don't know if it's just their inability to see the potential in their board games, or they don't think they'll sell, but it's very frustrating. Other than the new warhammer quest, you just know the game you buy is all you're going to get. It's even more bizarre when you consider the games like Space Hulk, which sell out within days every time they reprint it. Why not print enough for demand and then bring out expansions? Everyone would buy them!


THIS! Read GW!

Thanks guys for the support, hope this little rant come to GW ears... once in a while.
I know about the scenarios on White Dwarf and the occasional card for the smurfbot but... that is not support, not at all.
They broke with FFG but they must look at the FFG business model (aka... gazzillion of expansions for every game old and new).
I can only imagine, for example, a game like space hulk, B@C, Warhammer Quest with a good marketing plan behind. They can sold out everything in this way, mah... mistery of marketing.
Sell more miniatures and make money from cardboard... is soooo damn simple.
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Cutthroat Cardboard (Barry)
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hughwyeth wrote:
I think GW board games are essentially a way for them to repackage miniatures at a discount. The fact that they occasionally put a decent game in as well is really just luck.


GW must have got really lucky when they wrote this one...

Still hopeful that we'll eventually see some physical support, particularly now that the FFG license is gone. They could definitely be selling us some more models but maybe it's a drop in the ocean for them? Still current focus on board games suggests not...?

Inspired by WD we got Calth back on the table this week after a bit of a break. Quickly reminded me how much fun it is and how well they've captured the 40K vibe without the baggage.

Also inspired by WD I downloaded the iBook for Kill Team this week and watched some vids on YouTube. Couldn't help but think however that the BaC system does this scale so much cleaner and better.
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Roberto Ranieri
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Skipp wrote:
[q="hughwyeth"]Also inspired by WD I downloaded the iBook for Kill Team this week and watched some vids on YouTube. Couldn't help but think however that the BaC system does this scale so much cleaner and better.


AND THIS!!! Read GW!

Is so bad to have a bigger number of people playing with your miniatures? shake

Need to find a mother language pal to scream it in current English!


 
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Kevin Outlaw
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hughwyeth wrote:
I think GW board games are essentially a way for them to repackage miniatures at a discount. The fact that they occasionally put a decent game in as well is really just luck. It would be good if they switched this approach now they split with FFG and actually support games and bring expansions, especially as they've brought back specialist games, but you never now. Most of GW's business decisions in the last 15 years have made absolutely no sense from the outside.

How cool would it be if along with B@C they brought out mini expansions with more miniatures for both sides so we get more customisation, another one with some more tiles for more variety and another one with an additional race? I don't know if it's just their inability to see the potential in their board games, or they don't think they'll sell, but it's very frustrating. Other than the new warhammer quest, you just know the game you buy is all you're going to get. It's even more bizarre when you consider the games like Space Hulk, which sell out within days every time they reprint it. Why not print enough for demand and then bring out expansions? Everyone would buy them!


I own all the latest batch of GW games, enjoys them all, and play them more than anything else in my collection, so obviously I don't agree with your assessment of GW games. But that's personal opinion.

However, I don't agree that their good games are a result of "luck." You don't design something like Calth through luck. They use their quality miniatures as a prop, knowing sales will be okay based on the popularity of the miniatures, but they are clearly using that prop in order to test the waters with some pretty good games, some of which have innovative mechanisms.

Also, only some of the games have "repackaged models at a discount." Space Hulk, Dreadfleet, Overkill, Calth, and Silver Tower all had original miniatures, not miniatures that were repurposed from another source.

GW have tried different ways to support their games recently. Like you, I don't find any of them ideal (in fact, they fall well short of what I consider ideal), but I do consider them positive moves in the right direction, and obvious signs of effort on their part. Such efforts include digital expansions for the latest edition of Space Hulk, the Mighty Heroes "expansion" for Silver Tower (and the app), and a lot of recent White Dwarf content. For Calth alone, White Dwarf has provided three new scenarios, a new unit card, and a points system that allows you to mix up the original scenarios. That's quite a lot of content that starts to add up to something that looks like the start of a small box expansion, even if the delivery method isn't great and some of the scenarios aren't brilliant.

As for the future... We don't yet know what the next 30K boxed game is going to offer. It may be exactly the same system, with options to integrate it with Calth. That would be amazing.

And for other game systems - there are several rumours of expansions for Silver Tower; and at the end of the year Blood Bowl comes out, which is going to have a separate league book, multiple expansions, and additional teams and star players.

Bear in mind, Blood Bowl is the first game from the new "specialist games" team, so it could well be that those sorts of plans are going to be the future and we will start to see a lot more support.

I truly believe GW is pulling itself up by the bootstraps after years of making a massive hash of pretty much everything, and it's doing a pretty damned good job of bouncing back. It's just going to take a while. In the meantime... Yeah, I agree, it is frustrating that we aren't seeing a "proper" Calth expansion... unless, of course, that next 30K offering is it.
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Rauli Kettunen
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It is unfortunate GW doesn't really do expansions for their games. It never really was their thing. Given that, it is rather ironic that once upon a time they released one of the greatest expansions for any game that has had expansions, Blood Bowl: DeathZone . I'm sure the writers could come up with a scenario booklet of sorts for BaC for example. But since so many people seem to A) buy BaC just for the minis or B) buy the cardboard, proxy the minis, not sure the market really is there.
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Kevin Outlaw
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Dam the Man wrote:
Given that, it is rather ironic that once upon a time they released one of the greatest expansions for any game that has had expansions, Blood Bowl: DeathZone .


When the new edition comes out this year, they are releasing a league book which contains the Deathzone expansion rules.

While GW didn't produce expansions like FFG do, in the past they did produce expansions for Talisman, Warhammer Quest, Blood Bowl, Advanced HeroQuest, Necromunda, Space Hulk, Dark Future, DungeonQuest... HeroQuest and Space Crusade (if you count those)... probably more I can't think of. So, I'll look back on those times and cross my fingers

I agree with you that BaC is probably not going to generate much from expansions, despite how good it is. Silver Tower is one to watch, but I think Blood Bowl is going to be the true testing ground to see if they can really take the board game market by the throat.
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Mark
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To be fair/accurate, this month's White Dwarf (the first of the new, large format) has new rules/scenarios for 9 board/box games. And, a free miniature for Gorechosen/Age of Sigmar.

That's pretty good/great.

/
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Ken Lewis
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With organized play being popular among other miniature games like Heroclix and X-Wing, I think Betrayal at Calth should have been envisioned as such a game.

The system makes the Warhammer 40K/30K world accessible to more than just hobby gamers, but GW didn't see it that way, and instead released the game with an eye towards hobby gamers.

If the models had been molded in colored plastic and push fit, I have no doubt the game would be more popular than it is. I hated the models (the thought of assembling them that is) and instead sold them and proxied the push fit models from Dark Vengeance.

Hopefully the realize how great a game system they have here and use it to appeal to more than just their core market. I wouldn't mind a Necromunda version...
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Kevin Outlaw
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Giant_Monster wrote:
With organized play being popular among other miniature games like Heroclix and X-Wing, I think Betrayal at Calth should have been envisioned as such a game.

The system makes the Warhammer 40K/30K world accessible to more than just hobby gamers, but GW didn't see it that way, and instead released the game with an eye towards hobby gamers.

If the models had been molded in colored plastic and push fit, I have no doubt the game would be more popular than it is. I hated the models (the thought of assembling them that is) and instead sold them and proxied the push fit models from Dark Vengeance.

Hopefully the realize how great a game system they have here and use it to appeal to more than just their core market. I wouldn't mind a Necromunda version...


I have no interest in organised play, personally, but do think another version of the game with colour-coded push-fit models would be great. The models in Calth are pretty heavy going, and a massive barrier to entry. They guaranteed good sales, but isolated a demographic that the game was perfect for (the people who play things like Memoir 44).

It would be really great to see a version that had interchangeable weapons (anybody else remember the old Space Crusade models)? That would make me very happy.
 
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Ken Lewis
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
Giant_Monster wrote:
With organized play being popular among other miniature games like Heroclix and X-Wing, I think Betrayal at Calth should have been envisioned as such a game.

The system makes the Warhammer 40K/30K world accessible to more than just hobby gamers, but GW didn't see it that way, and instead released the game with an eye towards hobby gamers.

If the models had been molded in colored plastic and push fit, I have no doubt the game would be more popular than it is. I hated the models (the thought of assembling them that is) and instead sold them and proxied the push fit models from Dark Vengeance.

Hopefully the realize how great a game system they have here and use it to appeal to more than just their core market. I wouldn't mind a Necromunda version...


I have no interest in organised play, personally, but do think another version of the game with colour-coded push-fit models would be great. The models in Calth are pretty heavy going, and a massive barrier to entry. They guaranteed good sales, but isolated a demographic that the game was perfect for (the people who play things like Memoir 44).

It would be really great to see a version that had interchangeable weapons (anybody else remember the old Space Crusade models)? That would make me very happy.


I mentioned organized play because I think it is a great way to get a bunch of strangers together to share in a night of gaming (and it helps promote the game on a larger scale).

For some gamers, organized play events are the only way they get to play.
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Mark
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For the sake of understanding the method to their madness...I kinda/sorta gave some thought to building a Warhammer 30K space marine army. One thing becomes clear/obvious. IF one were inclined to purchase/build a Warhammer 30K space marine army (of either flavor, Imperial/Chaos), the first/smart purchase would be a couple of boxes of Betrayal at Calth. Those particular mini's are the most economical way to to get the job done. Their 30K counterparts are only made in resin from GW's Forge World line, and MUCH more expensive. And, due to the absolute vagaries of the 40K Universe, they are also perfectly OK for 40K, anyway. In any case, that dream was short-lived/squashed by an intense onslaught of sanity/apathy.

I hate to/have to admit I really like/appreciate this game. Be it due to GW luck/skill, it's a winner/fun game.

OK, enough/stop with the damn/stupid slashes! soblue/shake
 
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Hugh Wyeth
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ZombieMark wrote:
To be fair/accurate, this month's White Dwarf (the first of the new, large format) has new rules/scenarios for 9 board/box games. And, a free miniature for Gorechosen/Age of Sigmar.

That's pretty good/great.

;)/:D


The new White Dwarf is a huge improvement on the old weekly one. Not quite up to where it was in it's heyday in the 90s, but still pretty great I thought.
 
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D. Patton
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The Burning of Prospero was just 'accidentally' leaked with a preview cover of an upcoming White Dwarf over on dakkadakka. The game--whose mechanics are not obvious from the minis on the WD cover---apparently has space marines, sisters of silence (whoever they are) and custodes.

With any luck, B@C or Deathwatch Overkill's game engine will run the new game. It's reportedly coming out in November timeframe if I understand right.
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Rauli Kettunen
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RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
When the new edition comes out this year, they are releasing a league book which contains the Deathzone expansion rules.


League rules were fine, it was the cards that really made DZ kick ass, until your opponent was out of cards, delay tactics became risky, no TD was ever safe. Having all those extra Star Players was really nice too, especially since in 3e, you actually got to use them (they are 2-3 times as expensive these days, probably in game money and real money ).
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Dam the Man wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
When the new edition comes out this year, they are releasing a league book which contains the Deathzone expansion rules.


League rules were fine, it was the cards that really made DZ kick ass, until your opponent was out of cards, delay tactics became risky, no TD was ever safe. Having all those extra Star Players was really nice too, especially since in 3e, you actually got to use them (they are 2-3 times as expensive these days, probably in game money and real money ).


Which is exactly why I treasure my copy, and won't touch the living rulebook. And a large part of why I was disappointed by the video games of recent years.
 
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Kevin Outlaw
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Dam the Man wrote:
RedMonkeyBoy wrote:
When the new edition comes out this year, they are releasing a league book which contains the Deathzone expansion rules.


League rules were fine, it was the cards that really made DZ kick ass, until your opponent was out of cards, delay tactics became risky, no TD was ever safe. Having all those extra Star Players was really nice too, especially since in 3e, you actually got to use them (they are 2-3 times as expensive these days, probably in game money and real money ).


I should have been clearer: they are supposed to be introducing all the star players and everything else, not just the league rules. The new supplement will have 20 star players, and they have plans for the special play cards too.

This website has a comprehensive list of their plans:
http://www.thenaf.net/2016/05/warhammerfest-roundup/
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Kevin Outlaw
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privateer4hire wrote:
The Burning of Prospero was just 'accidentally' leaked with a preview cover of an upcoming White Dwarf over on dakkadakka.


Custodes... Ooh...



Whatever those models are on, I don't see hexes. I'll just start holding my breath...
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Roberto Ranieri
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Beautiful...
but the no hexes thing is very disappointing shake
 
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pettigrosso wrote:
Beautiful...
but the no hexes thing is very disappointing shake

Perhaps it uses the Deathwatch Overkill rules platform...
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Roberto Ranieri
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privateer4hire wrote:
pettigrosso wrote:
Beautiful...
but the no hexes thing is very disappointing shake

Perhaps it uses the Deathwatch Overkill rules platform...


Is possible, but i guess (imho of course) that Overkill rules are too specific for a Prospero battle scenario. I suppose to be a total different set of rules but i have doubts they can be better than B@C ones.
 
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Ken Lewis
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pettigrosso wrote:
privateer4hire wrote:
pettigrosso wrote:
Beautiful...
but the no hexes thing is very disappointing shake

Perhaps it uses the Deathwatch Overkill rules platform...


Is possible, but i guess (imho of course) that Overkill rules are too specific for a Prospero battle scenario. I suppose to be a total different set of rules but i have doubts they can be better than B@C ones.


It will likely be an easy pass for me if it doesn't use the BaC rules.
 
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