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Terra Mystica» Forums » Organized Play

Subject: Season 15 of 4p TM Tour. Div 1 Controversy IMPORTANT 1st post update rss

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Update: Games have started.
http://tmtour.org/#/divisions


Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
http://tmtour.org/#/signup

Posted by: JamesWolfpacker

Edited to add below by: JamesWolfpacker (16:30 GMT Nov 28, 2016)
----------------------------------------------------------------
Please Note Access to This BBG Account: Juho Snellman (jsnell, owner of terra.snellman.net), Daniel Åkerlund (bjolletz, owner of tmtour.org), CTKShadow (F&I test league admin), JamesWolfpacker (F&I test league admin), SillyWords (WTC admin).
Usage: Created for common use to allow several admins to update non-automated results of official, not yet official, or non-official Terra Mystica Posts, Tournaments and Leagues.

IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT
A major controversy has emerged in Division 1 regarding one player that has dropped 3 games and another player's decision to delay the completion of a game.

The start of the discussion starts near the end of page 5 with the 1st drop.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24268463#24268463

Comments by Xevoc.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24329705#24329705
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24330108#24330108

I made a baiting comment shortly after to stir discussion which is refuted by DocCool at the top of page 7 and disputed by Skyswooper/retardedonkey thereafter. Page 7 has most of the heated discussion.
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24332065#24332065

Please make your opinions known as nicely as possible. I myself occasionally get table pounding upset at losing. I know these top players are likely feeling heated over these high stakes as I have been in a similar position in another major online board game (PlayCatan) before.
----------------------------------------------------------------
ETA: JamesWolfpacker (15:15 GMT Nov 29, 2016)

Also, please note that player enkidu is actually a consortium of 3 (formerly 4) players that play on 1 account which has been previously approved by Daniel.
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1678281/league-1-game-analy...
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Robert
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Will there be any blacklisting?
- For players who dropped this season?
- Or who used more than X days (*) on their no-grace clock?
- Or who were part of an unfinished game and used more than Y days (**) on their no-grace clock?

(*) e.g. X = 30d
(**) e.g. Y = 25d
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
I don't know. If Daniel decides to add it, which I would be in favor of also, then he can edit the first post of this topic to add it in.
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Mikael Johansson
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
As I have understood Daniel, and as I understand the current rules on the TM Tour site, there will be no automatic blacklisting because of used time/dropping this season.
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Space Trucker
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
DocCool wrote:
Will there be any blacklisting?
- For players who dropped this season?
- Or who used more than X days (*) on their no-grace clock?
- Or who were part of an unfinished game and used more than Y days (**) on their no-grace clock?

I wonder whether there is actual need for any of those actions?

With the new chess clock values most games seem to finish in time.
For a players in a higher division usually dropping from a game is already a huge penalty.

I guess there are two (quite unlikely) scenarios left:
- Players could maybe still delay games that are already slow and where they are loosing into not finishing to deny points to the potential winners.
- There could be bottom division players who sign on and drop from (some) games multiple seasons in a row and who don't care much about being demoted/losing.

Both is already forbidden by tournament rules (delaying games on purpose, joining without somehow serious attempt to finish the games).
Maybe manual blacklisting is enough if such cases should occur?
 
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Petri Savola
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
I will be most likely taking a break from tournament. I know that I'll be away for 4-5 days during my trip to Essen and then again in November 8 days for a family vacation. So best 2nd from div2 may get in div1 on the following season.
 
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Robert
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Petri wrote:
I know that I'll be away for 4-5 days during my trip to Essen
As you likely won't be the only one in Essen next month: Is there some "BGG TM fans get-together" planned, and if not, should we plan one?
 
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Robert
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
SpaceTrucker wrote:
I guess there are two (quite unlikely) scenarios left:
- Players could maybe still delay games that are already slow and where they are loosing into not finishing to deny points to the potential winners.
- There could be bottom division players who sign on and drop from (some) games multiple seasons in a row and who don't care much about being demoted/losing.

Both is already forbidden by tournament rules (delaying games on purpose, joining without somehow serious attempt to finish the games).
Neither of these scenarios are actually mentioned in the rules; the first one is mentioned on the signup page as a potential reason for exclusion and it might be nice to integrate all the red stuff on the signup page into the rules.

Unfortunately, whether a delay is "intentional" is a somewhat subjective assessment - even if a player stalls game A while moving in game B could be arguably because "I don't have much time for TM right now, so I only make the moves I don't need to think about".

Instead of Daniel manually having to check on blacklisting candidates, I prefer some automatic blacklisting rules, which could be overridden by Daniel if the player in question cares enough to share good reasons with Daniel (and Daniel would be the only decision maker for of whether reasons are "good").

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James Wolfpacker
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Petri wrote:
I will be most likely taking a break from tournament. I know that I'll be away for 4-5 days during my trip to Essen and then again in November 8 days for a family vacation. So best 2nd from div2 may get in div1 on the following season.


Wow! surprise When/if you come back there could be a really good chance that you'll get placed in D3 or D4. That could really shuffle up the higher divisions by the time you get back to D1. I guess it would be a good time for Daniel to jump back into D2 as there would be a spot.

Also, if the F&I tournament does start at the beginning of November as currently scheduled (it could be pushed back again) then you might have to start at the bottom division for that. I don't think as many new entrants will be in it as are in the regular league, but I'm confident that Division 6 will at least be started in the 1st F&I season.
 
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Petri Savola
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
DocCool wrote:
Petri wrote:
I know that I'll be away for 4-5 days during my trip to Essen
As you likely won't be the only one in Essen next month: Is there some "BGG TM fans get-together" planned, and if not, should we plan one?

It'll be a quite busy weekend for me, but if the meeting would be at some convenient time, then why not.
 
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Steve Haas
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Wow! surprise When/if you come back there could be a really good chance that you'll get placed in D3 or D4. That could really shuffle up the higher divisions by the time you get back to D1. I guess it would be a good time for Daniel to jump back into D2 as there would be a spot.


Wait, how would this work? I thought you got placed based on your performance in the last season you participated in - i.e., if you're the defending champion of 1-1 and take a couple seasons off, you still come back in on top - the only people you can be behind are other people who won 1-1 in their last tourney season, which there can't be more than a handful of at any given time - usually just one, unless other people also took seasons off after winning.
 
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Robert
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Steve496 wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Wow! surprise When/if you come back there could be a really good chance that you'll get placed in D3 or D4. That could really shuffle up the higher divisions by the time you get back to D1. I guess it would be a good time for Daniel to jump back into D2 as there would be a spot.


Wait, how would this work? I thought you got placed based on your performance in the last season you participated in - i.e., if you're the defending champion of 1-1 and take a couple seasons off, you still come back in on top - the only people you can be behind are other people who won 1-1 in their last tourney season, which there can't be more than a handful of at any given time - usually just one, unless other people also took seasons off after winning.
If a division 1 guy (let's call him Mr. X ) leaves, he leaves an open slot, which gets filled with a returning division 1 player, or if there is none, with an extra promotion for the best 2nd place in a division 2 league - note that in the latter case a new slot is opened, this time in division 2, which may trickle down all the way to division 8). Next season is played with all leagues in divisions 1+2 properly filled with 7 players.

If at the end of next season, all players from division 1+2 sign up again for the season after, then there's no open slot for Mr. X, as exactly two players from div1 will be relegated to div2, while the winners of the two div2 leagues are promoted to div1. So the division in which Mr. X joins again is the top-most division with an open slot. That may be division 1, but it may also be division 3 or even 4.

There is no forceful creation of open slots by e.g. relegating a 3rd player or denying a promotion to a winner from the next lower division.
 
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Dan H
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Do you only play with the base races
 
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Brian B.
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Yes. The tournament referred to in this thread is base races only on the base map. The only things that aren't part of the base game in this tournament are BON10 (3 VP per shipping & +3 power income), the 4 extra town tiles, and variable turn order.
 
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Steve Haas
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
DocCool wrote:
There is no forceful creation of open slots by e.g. relegating a 3rd player or denying a promotion to a winner from the next lower division.


Gotcha. Thanks for the clarification.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Petri wrote:
DocCool wrote:
Petri wrote:
I know that I'll be away for 4-5 days during my trip to Essen
As you likely won't be the only one in Essen next month: Is there some "BGG TM fans get-together" planned, and if not, should we plan one?

It'll be a quite busy weekend for me, but if the meeting would be at some convenient time, then why not.


I will in Essen acquiring games for Ali-Baba Spieleclub. There should be enough spare time, but hard to plan when.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Then someone make a topic about meeting at Essen and ask Juho to post it as a notice on his site. Then all you guys can discuss when and where to meet.
 
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C TK
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
LiteBulb88 wrote:
Yes. The tournament referred to in this thread is base races only on the base map. The only things that aren't part of the base game in this tournament are BON10 (3 VP per shipping & +3 power income), the 4 extra town tiles, and variable turn order.


And the new temple scoring round tile.
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Dmitriy Sh
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
imho, need setup timer
2 days + 1 day, grace period 8 hours
or less!
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
^That is too small for the initial time. If it starts on a Friday night you could be out by faction picks on Monday.
 
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Dmitriy Sh
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
i play all my games with this timer setup
and never has any problem :\

ok, lie.
one problem -
sometime i need wait 10-12 long days while my opponent will dropped :|

like here - http://terra.snellman.net/faction/lisy1x1gg31/auren/
 
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Space Trucker
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
7xLisy wrote:
imho, need setup timer
2 days + 1 day, grace period 8 hours
or less!

Why do you come to the conclusion that settings should be shorter?
At least in your league all your games were finished ~20 days before the end of the season.
And when I look at all the "red" leagues on the divisions tab I don't see any game which does not have a chance to still finish. In the most delayed games at least one slow player has already dropped and often a second will drop if he will delay more.

I guess the main effect of tighter chess clock timings will be dropping more players than necessary and shying away more players than necessary?
 
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Dmitriy Sh
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
hmmm
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S14_D2L2_G2
http://terra.snellman.net/faction/4pLeague_S14_D2L2_G4

this games not have been closer to the end? (with 2 + 1 / 8?)
 
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Dmitriy Sh
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
>>will be dropping more players<<
im sure, will be dropping same count, but it will faster
 
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Loon
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Re: Signup for Season 15 of 4p TM Tour has started.
Please rest assured that those in charge have analyzed this *thoroughly*:

(Link to earlier decision)
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