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Squad Leader» Forums » Rules

Subject: Bow Flamethrowers rss

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Scott B
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hi,

I've always thought FTs are AREA fire weapons. Its why their FP is not halved in advancing fire, its already AREA, why they must penetrate to both hexes and why no To Hit is needed.

22.8 allows flame based weapons to fire in the advancing fire phase.
33.31 prohibits a SPG firing its MA after moving to a new hex.
102.11 says flamethrowers are not conventional MA.

Does 102.11 imply FTs are not subject to 33.31 and bow mounted Flamethrowers are allowed to fire in the adfph after moving into a new hex in Cross of Iron?

thanks,

Scott
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Mo Caraher
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I'd say no, simply because the SPG is not a flamethrower, it merely has one on-board in this case.
I believe 33.31 seeks to govern the vehicle, regardless of its armament.
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Gustavo Jornet
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I haven't found it specifically.

But the treatment in rules is similar to a man handed FT (it has similar bonus). Maybe I'd say yes, but couldn't justify it.
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T. Dauphin
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I agree with Mo. I think 33.31 is more about the operation of the vehicle than the armament.
Flamethrowers are halved for concealment fire, btw (22.1)

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B Trap
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I believe the bow-mounted flamethrower cannot fire in AFPh if the vehicle moved to a new hex. 102.11 only refers to BX of vehicle vs infantry-based FT.

Why can't a SPG fire its MA in the AFPh after moving to a new hex? Other than it is written in the rules, of course.. I believe the reason MA can't fire is because of the time it would take a moving vehicle to establish not only its firing position, but now requires the movement of the entire vehicle (for the most part) to fine-tune the sight adjustments of the armament onto the target. Bow mounted MA are either rigidly mounted or have a very limited, and probably unpowered, traverse. I have to believe it is much slower and more involved than the turning of a turret to make those fine adjustments to get steel on target.

Just my two cents. But I believe the SPG rules apply to use of bow-mounted FT.
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Scott B
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Thanks guys,


Bill T and I are reviewing the SQLA conventions and we wanted to hear opinions. The conventions allow it because we remember AC allowing it on the now defunct SL List but neither of us can find it. Maybe AREA fire would be a compromise or maybe not allow it.

We also agree with Brian's reasoning and felt its why a bow FT _should_ fire in the adfph. That is, as an AREA fire weapon it doesn't need to lay onto the target with precision or time. More point-and-squirt.

S



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Gustavo Jornet
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Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrj_MEvvqrE

Here is a Churchill Crocodile (tank, so no SPG), but it has the Flamethrower in the chasis so its use is apart from the turret. Moving and firing to the front is easy.

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T. Dauphin
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That's a useful video, but you can see how narrow a spray it produces.

Tripcorner wrote:

... I believe the reason MA can't fire is because of the time it would take a moving vehicle to establish not only its firing position, but now requires the movement of the entire vehicle (for the most part) to fine-tune the sight adjustments of the armament onto the target. Bow mounted MA are either rigidly mounted or have a very limited, and probably unpowered, traverse. I have to believe it is much slower and more involved than the turning of a turret to make those fine adjustments to get steel on target...


I agree. If your target happens to lie directly in your path, you'd be set, but if not there would be some time and care required to line it up. I believe there would need to be a penalty if you go with it.

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Mo Caraher
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Gustavo's example got me thinking and I discovered something odd.

In the vehicle notes in CoD it's mentioned that a Churchill with a bow-mounted gun(note "Y", I think) is treated as if it were a SPG when aiming that particular weapon. Yet, the notes on the Churchill w/ bow -mounted FT indicates no such stipulation. Now I dunno what to think.


Edit: typed CoI when CoD was called for
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Gustavo Jornet
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Certainly if it hasn't been covered in official rules or further ammendments the solution seems an agreement between players before the match when such vehicles appear.

And equally agree for some tournament rule.
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T. Dauphin
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moly19 wrote:
Gustavo's example got me thinking and I discovered something odd.

In the vehicle notes in CoI it's mentioned that a Churchill with a bow-mounted gun(note "Y", I think) is treated as if it were a SPG when aiming that particular weapon. Yet, the notes on the Churchill w/ bow -mounted FT indicates no such stipulation. Now I dunno what to think.


I believe you meant COD.
edit: I see you caught that just as I was responding.
That's actually referring to the bow mounted howitzer which is the 2nd gun on the tank. It has a turreted gun as well, but which has restricted movement because of the howitzer.

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Scott B
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1974vertigo2009 wrote:
an agreement between players before the match when such vehicles appear.

And equally agree for some tournament rule.


Ideally. The trouble is too often it is missed and then, you guessed it, the guy with the Bow FT says it can fire in the adfph and the guy staring down the hose says it can't. Then they email me.

Now i can say 'lets look at the convention...'

Thanks to all for opinions.

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Mo Caraher
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tanik wrote:
moly19 wrote:
Gustavo's example got me thinking and I discovered something odd.

In the vehicle notes in CoI it's mentioned that a Churchill with a bow-mounted gun(note "Y", I think) is treated as if it were a SPG when aiming that particular weapon. Yet, the notes on the Churchill w/ bow -mounted FT indicates no such stipulation. Now I dunno what to think.


I believe you meant COD.
edit: I see you caught that just as I was responding.
That's actually referring to the bow mounted howitzer which is the 2nd gun on the tank. It has a turreted gun as well, but which has restricted movement because of the howitzer.



Yes to all! laugh
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T. Dauphin
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sbramley1967 wrote:
1974vertigo2009 wrote:
an agreement between players before the match when such vehicles appear.

And equally agree for some tournament rule.


Ideally. The trouble is too often it is missed and then, you guessed it, the guy with the Bow FT says it can fire in the adfph and the guy staring down the hose says it can't. Then they email me.

Now i can say 'lets look at the convention...'

Thanks to all for opinions.



Yea, you almost need a pre-game checklist;

*2 sets of dice?
*2 sets of charts?
*DC attack AFVs according to time of placement?
*Vehicle mounted FTs attack in AF Phase?
*children locked in the basement?
*side table for...?
*beer?
whistle

Glad you're there, Scott, for when it doesn't make it onto the checklist.



edit: to add quote. Mo cut in and messed up the sequence.

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Gustavo Jornet
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A 50-50 friendly dice roll and the party keeps going...
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craig grinnell
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A simple answer would be to treat the flamethrower as a support weapon (because it is for infantry purposes)...

As such, if the bow MG on a tank or SPG can fire in the advance phase, then so too should a Flamethrower.
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T. Dauphin
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grinnell1969 wrote:
A simple answer would be to treat the flamethrower as a support weapon (because it is for infantry purposes)...

As such, if the bow MG on a tank or SPG can fire in the advance phase, then so too should a Flamethrower.


I like this.

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Scott B
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grinnell1969 wrote:
A simple answer would be to treat the flamethrower as a support weapon (because it is for infantry purposes)...

As such, if the bow MG on a tank or SPG can fire in the advance phase, then so too should a Flamethrower.


its a good point, if bow machine guns can fire in adfph then why not FTs.
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