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Chris R.
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"The federal government happily subsidizes inferior state colleges that graduate few if any of their students. That includes Chicago State University, which has a 12.8% six-year graduation rate.

The Obama administration has rewritten federal student loan rules in a way that encourages colleges to raise tuition and effectively subsidizes the worst colleges the most. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York found that each additional dollar in government financial aid results in a tuition hike of about 65 cents.

The federal government also subsidizes expensive, low-quality third-tier law schools whose graduates are often unemployed. It does so even though many of their graduates will never pay back their student loans because of their low graduating salaries, and the huge amount of money law students are allowed to borrow from the government.

(However, the government has a) hostile attitude towards for-profit colleges. It will sometimes financially destroy (for-profit colleges) even without any proof of wrongdoing. ...

Never mind that...

1. the higher education plans of tens of thousands of students will be disrupted.
2. that 8,000 people will lose their jobs.
3. that American taxpayers could be on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in forgiven student loans.

ITT Technical Institutes ... announced that after 50 years in business it was shutting down more than 100 campuses in 38 states. The announcement, displacing an estimated 40,000 students, follows last month's decision by the Education Department barring the school from enrolling new students using federal student aid and upping its surety requirements. ... experts presciently called a death sentence ... (However,) not a single allegation of wrongdoing has been proven against the school.

...ITT Tech produced better graduating salaries for its students than nearby public alternatives. But no one is suggesting that those lousy public colleges be shut down."

http://www.mindingthecampus.org/2016/09/obama-backs-the-wors...



It's amazing all of the destruction that the Obama administration has wrecked across the land -- from health insurance companies to colleges. These companies cannot be easily resurrected with a snap of a finger as the government takes control of more and more power over everyone's lives.

They want to control your health care. They want to control your education. And this doesn't include other areas like the energy sector. Green energy -- as field of industry where Democrat politicians shove their worthless relatives to get rich off of taxpayer money?
The buying of votes and loyalty is a nasty business.
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Kaitlyn Smith
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sikeospi wrote:
"The federal government happily subsidizes inferior state colleges that graduate few if any of their students. That includes Chicago State University, which has a 12.8% six-year graduation rate.
12.8%? They have a higher dead voter participation rate!
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Robert Wesley
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Kaitlyn_Res wrote:
12.8%? They have a higher dead voter participation rate!
Those of WHOM "passed on" were JUST: "throwing their education away!"
sauron ~gravely
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Les Marshall
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sikeospi wrote:
"The federal government happily subsidizes inferior state colleges that graduate few if any of their students. That includes Chicago State University, which has a 12.8% six-year graduation rate.

The Obama administration has rewritten federal student loan rules in a way that encourages colleges to raise tuition and effectively subsidizes the worst colleges the most. The Federal Reserve Bank of New York found that each additional dollar in government financial aid results in a tuition hike of about 65 cents.

The federal government also subsidizes expensive, low-quality third-tier law schools whose graduates are often unemployed. It does so even though many of their graduates will never pay back their student loans because of their low graduating salaries, and the huge amount of money law students are allowed to borrow from the government.

(However, the government has a) hostile attitude towards for-profit colleges. It will sometimes financially destroy (for-profit colleges) even without any proof of wrongdoing. ...

Never mind that...

1. the higher education plans of tens of thousands of students will be disrupted.
2. that 8,000 people will lose their jobs.
3. that American taxpayers could be on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in forgiven student loans.

ITT Technical Institutes ... announced that after 50 years in business it was shutting down more than 100 campuses in 38 states. The announcement, displacing an estimated 40,000 students, follows last month's decision by the Education Department barring the school from enrolling new students using federal student aid and upping its surety requirements. ... experts presciently called a death sentence ... (However,) not a single allegation of wrongdoing has been proven against the school.

...ITT Tech produced better graduating salaries for its students than nearby public alternatives. But no one is suggesting that those lousy public colleges be shut down."

http://www.mindingthecampus.org/2016/09/obama-backs-the-wors...



It's amazing all of the destruction that the Obama administration has wrecked across the land -- from health insurance companies to colleges. These companies cannot be easily resurrected with a snap of a finger as the government takes control of more and more power over everyone's lives.

They want to control your health care. They want to control your education. And this doesn't include other areas like the energy sector. Green energy -- as field of industry where Democrat politicians shove their worthless relatives to get rich off of taxpayer money?
The buying of votes and loyalty is a nasty business.


Whatever you believe the relevance of your "citations" here, at the end of the Bush administration, the economy of the United States was in a tailspin and at the end of the Obama administration, the economy is in a steady climb.
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J.D. Hall
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Well, the article is from a non-biased web site not trying to push an agenda, so it all has to be true, doesn't it?

ITT may innocent of the state and local charges against them. ITT may be guilty of those charges. But why wait? For-profit universities have, overall, a very poor record, and thus in my opinion deserve closer scrutiny.

As for the 12.8% graduation rate at Chicago -- maybe it's because they don't rubber-stamp diplomas and hand them out like candy? It's not like Chicago public schools are the best in the country.
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Steven Woodcock
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Rulesjd wrote:

Whatever you believe the relevance of your "citations" here, at the end of the Bush administration, the economy of the United States was in a tailspin and at the end of the Obama administration, the economy is in a steady climb.


Pretty sure you have no idea of what a "steady climb" actually is....

Some people...mostly those around the DC region...think the economy is great. Most of America does not.




Ferret
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J.D. Hall
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Nope it's not. But it's a sight better than it was in 2008.
 
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BJ
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remorseless1 wrote:
Nope it's not. But it's a sight better than it was in 2008.


Yep, the economy sure went to shit as soon as the Democrats took over the Senate. Too bad that happened.
 
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Les Marshall
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Ferretman wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:

Whatever you believe the relevance of your "citations" here, at the end of the Bush administration, the economy of the United States was in a tailspin and at the end of the Obama administration, the economy is in a steady climb.


Pretty sure you have no idea of what a "steady climb" actually is....

Some people...mostly those around the DC region...think the economy is great. Most of America does not.




Ferret


You seem to think steady climb is the same as great. You fail to recognize there are points in between. What you have not responded to is the part where the economy was in a tail spin at the end of Bush's term. It is undeniably climbing at this time.
 
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Les Marshall
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bjlillo wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Nope it's not. But it's a sight better than it was in 2008.


Yep, the economy sure went to shit as soon as the Democrats took over the Senate. Too bad that happened.


What precisely did the "Democratic" Senate do and when that caused the economy to "go to shit"?
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Mike Stiles
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Worth noting that Chris is now on record supporting free reign for for-profit colleges.
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Greg Michealson
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Ferretman wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:

Whatever you believe the relevance of your "citations" here, at the end of the Bush administration, the economy of the United States was in a tailspin and at the end of the Obama administration, the economy is in a steady climb.


Pretty sure you have no idea of what a "steady climb" actually is....

Some people...mostly those around the DC region...think the economy is great. Most of America does not.


Ferret


Wrong as usual. Most of America is better off than eight years ago.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/01/obamas-numbers-january-2016...

Highlights:

- The economy has added more than 9 million jobs, and the jobless rate has dropped to below the historical median.
- The number of long-term unemployed Americans has dropped by 614,000 under Obama, but it is still 761,000 higher than at the start of the Great Recession.
- Corporate profits are up 166 percent; real weekly wages are up 3.4 percent.
- There are 15 million fewer people who lack health insurance.

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AMK
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remorseless1 wrote:
Well, the article is from a non-biased web site not trying to push an agenda, so it all has to be true, doesn't it?

ITT may innocent of the state and local charges against them. ITT may be guilty of those charges. But why wait? For-profit universities have, overall, a very poor record, and thus in my opinion deserve closer scrutiny.

As for the 12.8% graduation rate at Chicago -- maybe it's because they don't rubber-stamp diplomas and hand them out like candy? It's not like Chicago public schools are the best in the country.


You make a few very vague claims and provided nothing to support any of them.

Please define "very poor record" for the for-profit universities. Are you talking about graduation rate, employment rate after graduation, salary after graduation, or is this just a general "I'll see what I can find later to support my claim" filler statement. Please also demonstrate how for-profit universities are worse than non-for-profit in whatever category you were talking about.

Also, do you have anything to support your "rubber stamp" hypothesis or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass to try and counter the OP.

Long story short: Citation desperately needed for every word of your response.
 
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Robert Stuart
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This sounds pretty bad on the face of it.

Shouldn't Congress do something about it?
 
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Sam I am
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NO PICKLE!
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'We need to make student loans easy to get, at unlimited dollar amounts, to any institution they choose to attend.'
- Donald J Trump,
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Shawn Fox
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Richardson
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Keele047 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Well, the article is from a non-biased web site not trying to push an agenda, so it all has to be true, doesn't it?

ITT may innocent of the state and local charges against them. ITT may be guilty of those charges. But why wait? For-profit universities have, overall, a very poor record, and thus in my opinion deserve closer scrutiny.

As for the 12.8% graduation rate at Chicago -- maybe it's because they don't rubber-stamp diplomas and hand them out like candy? It's not like Chicago public schools are the best in the country.


You make a few very vague claims and provided nothing to support any of them.

Please define "very poor record" for the for-profit universities. Are you talking about graduation rate, employment rate after graduation, salary after graduation, or is this just a general "I'll see what I can find later to support my claim" filler statement. Please also demonstrate how for-profit universities are worse than non-for-profit in whatever category you were talking about.

Also, do you have anything to support your "rubber stamp" hypothesis or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass to try and counter the OP.

Long story short: Citation desperately needed for every word of your response.


http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/for_profit_report/Conte...
 
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J.D. Hall
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sfox wrote:
Keele047 wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Well, the article is from a non-biased web site not trying to push an agenda, so it all has to be true, doesn't it?

ITT may innocent of the state and local charges against them. ITT may be guilty of those charges. But why wait? For-profit universities have, overall, a very poor record, and thus in my opinion deserve closer scrutiny.

As for the 12.8% graduation rate at Chicago -- maybe it's because they don't rubber-stamp diplomas and hand them out like candy? It's not like Chicago public schools are the best in the country.


You make a few very vague claims and provided nothing to support any of them.

Please define "very poor record" for the for-profit universities. Are you talking about graduation rate, employment rate after graduation, salary after graduation, or is this just a general "I'll see what I can find later to support my claim" filler statement. Please also demonstrate how for-profit universities are worse than non-for-profit in whatever category you were talking about.

Also, do you have anything to support your "rubber stamp" hypothesis or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass to try and counter the OP.

Long story short: Citation desperately needed for every word of your response.


http://www.help.senate.gov/imo/media/for_profit_report/Conte...

Thanks Shawn, saved me a bit of work. As for the 12.8% rate, that was cited in the OP's original post. Keele, you sound like someone invested in for-profit colleges. Sorry I didn't provide the citations you asked for originally. I thought everyone knew about the Senate's report on for-profit higher education, plus had viewed or read the articles on the subject.
 
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rekinom
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sikeospi wrote:
ITT Technical Institutes ... announced that after 50 years in business it was shutting down more than 100 campuses in 38 states. The announcement, displacing an estimated 40,000 students, follows last month's decision by the Education Department barring the school from enrolling new students using federal student aid and upping its surety requirements. ... experts presciently called a death sentence ... (However,) not a single allegation of wrongdoing has been proven against the school.


It's not about wrong doing. You need accreditation for your students to get federal financial aid and ITT had problems with their accreditation and loan default rates for years. When your students don't pay back their loans, it is the tax payers who take the hit.

This is the problem with for-profit schools. Federal loans provide perverse incentives and these schools have huge marketing budgets to bring in more of that sweet federal loan money. The accreditation process is supposed to be a check on that, and even people involved in accreditation for non-profits are afraid that the government is going to step in and revamp the system. You have never seen a more fervent bunch of sudden converts to libertarianism than when you talk to a college provost or president about accreditation.
 
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fightcitymayor
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Pittsburgh
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sikeospi wrote:
(However, the government has a) hostile attitude towards for-profit colleges. It will sometimes financially destroy (for-profit colleges) even without any proof of wrongdoing. ...

Never mind that...

1. the higher education plans of tens of thousands of students will be disrupted.
2. that 8,000 people will lose their jobs.
3. that American taxpayers could be on the hook for hundreds of millions of dollars in forgiven student loans.

ITT Technical Institutes ... announced that after 50 years in business it was shutting down more than 100 campuses in 38 states. The announcement, displacing an estimated 40,000 students, follows last month's decision by the Education Department barring the school from enrolling new students using federal student aid and upping its surety requirements. ... experts presciently called a death sentence ... (However,) not a single allegation of wrongdoing has been proven against the school.
See, you just had to post about a for-profit school in a forum where there is a certain dude with a punching cat avatar that was employed by a for-profit school and can discuss with you for hours about the myriad ways for-profit schools are an unholy scam. So buckle up, kids!

Accreditation!
Higher education in America is about accreditation. So when you go to a local community college, it is "regionally accredited", meaning the curriculum is approved by a legitimate non-government-affiliated board in an effort to maintain education standards. This is why you were able to transfer your credits from a community college to a 4-year public or private university. For-profit schools are not (and have never been) regionally accredited, which is why your ITT Tech credits won't transfer anywhere (real colleges are way too smart to accept them.) They work off of "national accreditation" which is basically an office in Washington DC that rubber-stamps whatever you pay them to rubber stamp. And in June, the ACICS (the main national accreditation body in America) was shut down by the Dept. of Education. This hurts scammers because the ACICS, in all of its slimy glory, was the portal to for-profit schools obtaining billions in financial aid.

Here's a statement from the under-secretary of education:
Ted Mitchell wrote:
"The truth is that some agencies need to up their game," he said, adding that some accreditors had demonstrated "such wide and deep failure that they simply cannot be entrusted with making the determinations we, you and the public count on."
Mitchell also said the shortcomings of some accreditors have led to a loss of trust in the process.
"When we see schools provide extremely poor outcomes for students -- or even commit fraud -- while maintaining accreditation, that is a black mark on the entire field," he said.

And as for "not a single allegation of wrongdoing has been proven against the school" well... I'll let you read it yourself, because they scammed employees:
Quote:
ITT, one of the nation’s largest operators of for-profit technical schools, has been fighting a barrage of lawsuits and investigations. Weeks before the accrediting council made its request, Massachusetts Attorney General Maura Healey filed a lawsuit against ITT alleging that it pressured people to enroll in programs of dubious quality. Former recruiters told prosecutors that they were expected to call up to 100 prospective students per day and were publicly shamed or fired if they failed to meet quotas.

Employees are accused of telling prospective students at two campuses in Massachusetts that 80 to 100 percent of graduates found jobs in or related to their field of study, when the actual job placement rates were 50 percent or less and included graduates with internships, according to the complaint.

(And I can tell you how they fudge those numbers: Were you employed at McDonald's once you "graduated" from a for-profit school? Well, congratulations! They count that as 'successful' on their placement numbers! But wait, you say you had that job before you even started your degree? Well, too bad, you "have a job now" so the for-profit school has done it's job for you! kthxbye!)

They scammed investors:
Quote:
Top executives at ITT Educational Services, one of the largest operators of for-profit technical schools, lied to investors about high rates of late payments and defaults on student loans backed by the company, according to a complaint filed Tuesday by the Securities and Exchange Commission.

Rather than disclose the tens of millions of dollars in impending losses to investors, regulators say the company made secret payments on delinquent accounts to delay defaults. Executives assured investors in conference calls that the programs were performing well, while ITT’s obligations to pay out on soured loans began to balloon.


And holy everloving shyte, do they scam students...

Here is the con: For-profit schools rely on what is known in the industry as "the non-traditional student." These are high-school dropouts, college dropouts, single moms, ex-military, seniors, etc. This is a population that typically does not have the money nor the grades to make it into traditional American higher-education. So for-profit schools rely on the federal government and federal financial aid to get these "non-traditional students" into their program (and for the profit they require to exist.) Except what the predators don't tell the prey is that their degree is worth less than the paper it's printed on. The curriculums are invented in a fly-by-night method by whatever high-turnover "professor" is in charge of the class that week (have I mentioned the high turnover rate of instructors, as for-profit schools are notorious for not always paying them! And oh by the way, they make less $$$ than UPS drivers anyway!), and as has been discussed, no regional accreditation means no standards are to be found anywhere anyway.

And if the quality of the education were the only problem, maybe you just roll your eyes, but the real scumbaggery comes when the students are told they are responsible the the entirety of the loan payback regardless of outcome. So once the for-profit school convinces you (with high-pressure tactics, which they have also been sued for) to take out $40,000, $60,000, $100,000 in federally guaranteed student loans (96% of for-profit students need to take out loans) then the trap snaps shut, the college gets the money, and they are off to trap the next victim into their web of lies & deceit. Here's a fun fact: For-Profit Colleges Account for 35% of Student Loan Defaults! So the school gets the (taxpayer-funded) money via the student-loans, but the students are the ones on the hook for it, and get a garbage degree in the bargain. Not a bad way to make a profit in America, off the backs of the American taxpayer! The whole enterprise is about a half-step above payday loans on the scam scale.

And although I am not a Democrat, I can tell you that Democrats have been fighting against the scam of for-profit colleges for years, while Republican politicians have allowed the scam to take place & blocked attempts at legislation to clean up the sewer.

TL;DR
For-profit scam schools are the biggest welfare queens on earth!
And trying to "blame Obama" instead of the scammers actually perpetuating real fraud is partisan hackery of a hilariously pathetic sort.
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Oliver Dienz
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Burlington
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mrspank wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:

Whatever you believe the relevance of your "citations" here, at the end of the Bush administration, the economy of the United States was in a tailspin and at the end of the Obama administration, the economy is in a steady climb.


Pretty sure you have no idea of what a "steady climb" actually is....

Some people...mostly those around the DC region...think the economy is great. Most of America does not.


Ferret


Wrong as usual. Most of America is better off than eight years ago.

http://www.factcheck.org/2016/01/obamas-numbers-january-2016...

Highlights:

- The economy has added more than 9 million jobs, and the jobless rate has dropped to below the historical median.
- The number of long-term unemployed Americans has dropped by 614,000 under Obama, but it is still 761,000 higher than at the start of the Great Recession.
- Corporate profits are up 166 percent; real weekly wages are up 3.4 percent.
- There are 15 million fewer people who lack health insurance.



And household debt (a major reason for the financial crisis) fell significantly compared to income. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HDTGPDUSQ163N
 
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fightcitymayor wrote:
stuff


Yea and verily, as surely as the sun rises in the east, so too will a sikeopsi thread be shown to be full of shit before the first page is finished.
 
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Lynette
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fightcitymayor wrote:

TL;DR
For-profit scam schools are the biggest welfare queens on earth!
And trying to "blame Obama" instead of the scammers actually perpetuating real fraud is partisan hackery of a hilariously pathetic sort.



Sorry I totally have to disagree with this.

Sure it doesn't work out well for some people, but I know too many people making a LOT of money who got their jobs via for profit trade schools.

Some of them AFTER having gotten a B.A.in something like English, Literature, History etc and then discovering those traditional University degrees don't offer much in the way of employment.

So they are carrying student loans from BOTH paths... but he 60-100K jobs they HAVE at the national lab and/or in computer software development they got after graduating from ITT.

Now I have no problem with the idea of the Community Colleges doing a better job at offering "Trade School" type programs. But right now most of them don't. So places like ITT serve an important function for both industry and people looking to get into high tech jobs.

 
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Greg Michealson
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Maple Grove
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Rulesjd wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Nope it's not. But it's a sight better than it was in 2008.


Yep, the economy sure went to shit as soon as the Democrats took over the Senate. Too bad that happened.


What precisely did the "Democratic" Senate do and when that caused the economy to "go to shit"?


Did you hear that?

 
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Wendell
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Meerkat wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:

TL;DR
For-profit scam schools are the biggest welfare queens on earth!
And trying to "blame Obama" instead of the scammers actually perpetuating real fraud is partisan hackery of a hilariously pathetic sort.



Sorry I totally have to disagree with this.

Sure it doesn't work out well for some people, but I know too many people making a LOT of money who got their jobs via for profit trade schools.



The scam aspect is the false and deceptive advertising about earnings and job prospects for graduates, lies about graduation rates, lies about the qualifications of instructors, and some fiddling with the tuition numbers and lying about the student loans. Plus many of them running programs that are of dubious merit.

I feel bad for individuals who put money and time into some of these "schools". Sure SOME people came through them OK, but their pattern is clearly negative, and outright predatory towards their students.
 
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