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SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: [Spoiler] The Thug rss

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matt cramsie
Australia
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It's probably pretty obvious, but:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
so, the Thug has the ability to purchase 2 goods for one enmity, out for goods for 2 enmity. The description says: place the token on the sites you take goods from. We presume that you can choose to place the (one or two) enmity token(s) from amongst the places that you took them?
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David desJardins
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I'm not sure what other possibility there could be. We did have a couple of other questions, which are a bit less clear, but also pretty clear I think:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Can you spend 1 enmity for 1 good if that's all that's available, or all you have room for? We said yes.

Can you spend enmity for goods and also pay gold for goods in the same action? We said no.
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Ian Liddle
United States
Sandpoint
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We also have questions about the Thug.

Full card text for reference:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Instead of spending gold to buy goods on one island, you may give one enmity to buy two goods or two enmity to buy four goods. Enmity goes on the site(s) where the goods were.


Question:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
If the Thug's "Buy" is increased, does that allow the player under his advisement to:
a) Purchase additional goods using enmity
b) Purchase goods from one island using enmity, and additional goods from the same location beyond the first four using gold
c) Purchase goods from an island using enmity, and additional goods from another island using gold
d) Purchase any number of goods from any combination of islands using gold (and only gold), OR 1-4 goods using enmity from one island


I'd guess that c) is the most literal / balanced interpretation of the card... although I think the first option would be most thematic and awesome.

Edit:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'd argue with David's 2nd situation that it should be allowed, but only when gold purchases are happening on a different island as the thuggery.
 
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Matt S
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razordaze wrote:

Question:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
If the Thug's "Buy" is increased, does that allow the player under his advisement to:
a) Purchase additional goods using enmity
b) Purchase goods from one island using enmity, and additional goods from the same location beyond the first four using gold
c) Purchase goods from an island using enmity, and additional goods from another island using gold
d) Purchase any number of goods from any combination of islands using gold (and only gold), OR 1-4 goods using enmity from one island


I'd guess that c) is the most literal / balanced interpretation of the card... although I think the first option would be most thematic and awesome.


From what I understand its would be mostly c, but with the caveat from b.

Meaning -
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Purchase between 1-4 goods from one island using enmity. Then purchase X goods where X is the value from "Buy Goods + X", from any island you have a ship at using gold.
 
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David desJardins
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razordaze wrote:
Edit:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I'd argue with David's 2nd situation that it should be allowed, but only when gold purchases are happening on a different island as the thuggery.


Agree.
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Felix Lastname
Germany
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We just stumbled upon this guy today - German version: "Gauner" - and we actually put him to the side because it was very unclear.
Your comments don't quite clear my confusion.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
He can get you four goods. But you can place max. 2 enmity. Where would you place them? Which site?
We had the suspicion that he actually allows you to tap two sites on one island, buying the good that was there and one from the supply (as if raiding), and then put the enmity counters on these two sites (or just one of them, as the case may be). This seems a possible interpretation of the German text, but I don't know the original.
 
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David desJardins
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The English text says:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
place your tokens on any of the sites that you took goods from. If you take more goods than you place enmity, only some of those sites will get tokens.
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Felix Lastname
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Thanks. That is *not* on the German card, or not quite like that at least. Huh.
 
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j n
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Georgia
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DaviddesJ wrote:
The English text says:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
place your tokens on any of the sites that you took goods from. If you take more goods than you place enmity, only some of those sites will get tokens.


Interesting. My English copy just says
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"Enmity goes on site(s) where the goods were."

Which is less clear, though I agree with your interpretation.
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David desJardins
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Yes, I'm paraphrasing from memory. The text on the card is less clear, but clear enough.
 
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Guido Heinecke
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So to make sure I understand, since I'm no native speaker:
I use the Thug and pay no gold, but enmity. Let's say I choose wood and spice, take the cubes from the island and then put an enmity token on one of the two sites. I choose on which one.

Correct?
 
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j n
United States
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Yes.
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Kevin Luck

Virginia
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Spoiler (click to reveal)
Are the goods the Thug purchases with enmity separate form the goods you purchase with gold?

So the Thug is +2 buy goods,cna the thug purchases 4 goods with 2 enmity on an island that had 4 goods for sell can I also buy goods with my second ship on another island for more then the base 4 goods?
 
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j n
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Goods the thug buys with enmity count against your limit of goods bought.
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Frank Pelkofer
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lactamaeon wrote:
Goods the thug buys with enmity count against your limit of goods bought.


Right. It says he can buy goods with enmity. That counts as buying.
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Becq Starforged
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We've been playing that the Thug's ability replaces buying (ie, you can Thug up to four goods on a single island, OR you can buy goods with gold on multiple islands); choose one. That said, we may not be playing it as intended. But the feeling is that it's a pretty nice advisor regardless, so I guess I'm not over-inclined to change our interpretation to make it more flexible.
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Ian Liddle
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Becq wrote:
We've been playing that the Thug's ability replaces buying (ie, you can Thug up to four goods on a single island, OR you can buy goods with gold on multiple islands); choose one. That said, we may not be playing it as intended. But the feeling is that it's a pretty nice advisor regardless, so I guess I'm not over-inclined to change our interpretation to make it more flexible.

Yeah, but it doesn't make him upgrade-able at all, and he comes with two slots. That would be a waste if his merchant abilities were strictly either / or.

Hence our interpretation that he can use his ability on one island to get up to 4 goods, then if you have any buys left, you can spend gold at a different island.
 
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David desJardins
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razordaze wrote:
Yeah, but it doesn't make him upgrade-able at all, and he comes with two slots. That would be a waste if his merchant abilities were strictly either / or.


I'm confused about what you mean by this. You can put any completely unrelated upgrade on any adviser, you can give him Explore +3 for example. There are lots of advisers that have powers that are mutually exclusive (you can't use them both on the same turn), and there will be lots more as you play the game (there's no particular reason to put a good/matching upgrade on an adviser you aren't going to be able to keep).
 
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Ian Liddle
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DaviddesJ wrote:
razordaze wrote:
Yeah, but it doesn't make him upgrade-able at all, and he comes with two slots. That would be a waste if his merchant abilities were strictly either / or.


I'm confused about what you mean by this. You can put any completely unrelated upgrade on any adviser, you can give him Explore +3 for example. There are lots of advisers that have powers that are mutually exclusive (you can't use them both on the same turn), and there will be lots more as you play the game (there's no particular reason to put a good/matching upgrade on an adviser you aren't going to be able to keep).

There are advisors with extra-guild powers, yes, but none that I've seen (so far) are very powerful in those regards, but they have value as a flexible utility advisor.

I can't imagine anyone training the Thug to do an extra-guild action unless they were trying to burn a retired advisor slot; there's nothing he could be upgraded to do that's worth 4 goods.

Using your interpretation, there's no reason to train him (specifically) at all. I'd consider it a minor support for the argument though, along the same weight as your inclination not to upgrade him because he's already a nice advisor.

They primary rationale is that nothing on his card suggests that he would affect interfere with buying on other islands as the rules allow under normal circumstances.
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David desJardins
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razordaze wrote:
I can't imagine anyone training the Thug to do an extra-guild action unless they were trying to burn a retired advisor slot; there's nothing he could be upgraded to do that's worth 4 goods.


I still don't understand your point. I would certainly rather have an advisor that can either use the Thug power or Explore +3, then one that can only do the former. If you really think that the former is so incredibly powerful that no one would ever use the advisor for the other then that seems way wrong to me.

Quote:
Using your interpretation, there's no reason to train him (specifically) at all.


I'm not sure what you think "my interpretation" is. Honestly, I really don't see any doubt about what he can do. I just don't understand what the presence or non-presence of upgrade slots could possibly have to do with interpreting the text on the card. It's completely irrelevant.
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Ian Liddle
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Seems that there's a philosophical difference between myself and your group. I apologize for assuming that we'd approach advisor upgrades the same way.

The way I see it, the fact that I only keep (at most) one advisor after the game is over, I'll be drafting from the general pool for most of the next game.

So why pollute my pool by making any advisors weaker? Even if I were to only ever upgrade the "keeper" until he was just the best ever, that advisor in my counsel room is arguably much more accessible to opponents via raid than options deep in the advisor deck--I'd much rather have someone else draft a nice advisor from the forum than sacking my province to get the only good one.

The advisor pool is constantly expanding and changing from game to game, and I know I'm going to favor different guilds as new opportunities present themselves, so I'm inevitably going to ditch any given advisor at some point for another. (maybe not the Foreman?)

E.g., even if I'm not planning on raiding anytime soon, it's sensible to make sure there's at least a handful of solid soldier options in the forum a few games from now when I will be. In the meantime, one of those awesome raiders is likely to get drafted over what I'm really after in the short term.
 
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David desJardins
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razordaze wrote:
The way I see it, the fact that I only keep (at most) one advisor after the game is over, I'll be drafting from the general pool for most of the next game.

So why pollute my pool by making any advisors weaker?


Any advisor that you upgrade and return to the pool is just as likely to benefit someone else as to benefit you. So there's no advantage to you from making the advisor better, because it's just as likely to work against you as for you.

And, if you have a high title, then it's more likely to benefit someone else than to benefit you, because the other players get first choice of advisers before you, so have the best chance of getting the best advisers.
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Ian Liddle
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I agree; there's little or no comparative personal advantage, especially if you're in the lead. For me though, (I'm not saying this necessarily applies to your cohort) there is significant collective advantage to playing a game with an abundance of exciting options for everyone, rather than a pool full of crap. Having a tighter score spread also makes the game more fun.

It's a bit of a prisoners' dilemma. Although in this case, I'd argue that the competitive benefit of free-loading vs contributing to the pool is very small compared to the social / entertainment cost.

This might not apply to your group at all though, so I apologize if I've overstated my opinion: Most of the time I game with people that are nowhere near as passionate and nerdy about the hobby as I am. As a result, I've adapted by making hospitality and collective enjoyment a higher priority. YMMV.
 
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