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Subject: GMT P500 rss

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Peter Collins
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How long does it usually take for a game to be produced once it crosses the P500 threshold?

I see that Triumph and Tragedy is on 498 this morning, so basically I guess I'm asking, "when do I get my game?"

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Mark
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Reprints typically go quicker than new games.

Wasnt T&T included in the most recent production update from a few days ago?

Check the GMT website...id post the link but I can't get it up on my
Mobile.
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Ron A
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T&T, huh? According to the latest GMT newsletter, it is on the schedule for November. Newsletter says game is already at printer, so I think Nov is the ship date.

As always, all prognostications guaranteed or double your $$ back.
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Holman
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PeteyWA wrote:
How long does it usually take for a game to be produced once it crosses the P500 threshold?

I see that Triumph and Tragedy is on 498 this morning, so basically I guess I'm asking, "when do I get my game?"



The 500th order automatically starts the printing press!

Not really. There's no telling how long a game will take. A hot title like a new COIN game might be on your table in a year or less, while some games languish for a very long time. I put in an order for the Fields of Fire reprint back in early 2012, and that was after it had already hit 500.

It's not just about printing schedules, either. Some games on the P500 list are still very much in mid-development long after the orders have crossed the threshold.
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Kevin C.
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Isn't P500 a holdover? I thought I read that 700 is really the magic number.

GMT is pretty upfront about production issues and factors, so if you read the newsletters, you can get an idea of where your game is (or isn't) in the queue.

The real fun is when the game actually ships and you have people reporting in in threads from all over the country trying to figure out delivery patterns and such.

Kevin
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Rex Stites
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natsean wrote:
Isn't P500 a holdover? I thought I read that 700 is really the magic number.

GMT is pretty upfront about production issues and factors, so if you read the newsletters, you can get an idea of where your game is (or isn't) in the queue.

The real fun is when the game actually ships and you have people reporting in in threads from all over the country trying to figure out delivery patterns and such.

Kevin


500 is the number at which point GMT basically commits to printing the game. At that point, they start the final part of the design work, which is generally finalizing components, final playtesting, proofreading rules, etc. They used to give an estimate of ~700 for when you could expect the game to print. I don't think this was because the game needed 700 orders to print but rather that with a typical rate for new orders after hitting 500, 700 was about the number that coincided with when they had finished everything and were ready toprint.
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Kevin C.
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My point was that the 500 threshold has changed due to cost and "making the cut" doesn't mean what is used to.

You used to be able to count on game hitting 500 being printed. Now, not so much.

Quote:
500 orders is still the level at which a game "makes the P500 cut." Now, however, we don't automatically and immediately send such a game to the printer. Instead, we look at how quickly its numbers are rising as well as how well the final development is progressing, and and slot the fastest-rising and most-ready "over 500 games" as they near the 700 order mark (because 700-750 orders is about what it takes now to pay for the printing).


So, 700+ is what is really needed to cover the costs of the print runs now. Games can sit at 500+ for a long time and, quite possibly, never see printing. Or for all intents and purposes, not see printing.

Looking at the "Made the Cut" list at the moment, I doubt we will see all those games.

I just think people's heads would explode at this point if it became P700. devil

Kevin
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Rex Stites
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Are there any games that have made it to 500 that GMT has taken off the list and decided not to print?
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roger miller
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At 500 GMT does start treating the project as something they will publish instead of just an idea. So they do start working on testing, art, etc. But they do need about 700 to actually publish it. So a game that is just over 500 but going up slowly could sit for a very long time before publishing. I do not know of one ever being cancelled between 500 and 700 for slow growth but I guess it might be possible.

Reprints are a totally different issue and have been done at much lower numbers than 500. All depends on how much long term demand GMT sees in the title.
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
Are there any games that have made it to 500 that GMT has taken off the list and decided not to print?


I don't remember. I read the newsletter every month and the Geeklist. I'm trying to remember why the ones that have come off recently have come off. Maybe it was just for slow growth below 500.

I don't really see any reason for them to drop the game. They can just let it sit, which is kind of my point. As was said above, a game can sit around 500 for a loooong time now.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if you are really licking your chops for Wellington in India to get a slot just because it "Made the Cut" at 528, don't get your hopes up.

(At the same time, Time of Crisis has a spot at 681, so the 700 number isn't hard and fast either.)

Kevin
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Scott Gillispie
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This seems to pop up every month or so. Since I've been paying more attention to this than is healthy for the last year or so, let me consolidate what I know (note that I know nothing other than what I read in the forums or on GMT's webpage, plus my own experience in receiving P500s.

Here's GMT's link on how P500 works: http://www.gmtgames.com/t-GMTP500Details.aspx

Here's what it says about the '700' threshold:

Quote:
500 orders is still the level at which a game "makes the P500 cut." Now, however, we don't automatically and immediately send such a game to the printer. Instead, we look at how quickly its numbers are rising as well as how well the final development is progressing, and and slot the fastest-rising and most-ready "over 500 games" as they near the 700 order mark (because 700-750 orders is about what it takes now to pay for the printing).


Note that P500 listings can be seperated into new and reprint orders - reprints don't need as much development work, etc, so they can get those onto the schedule quick. Which is why T&T is on the schedule for November (I like the add they made the last couple of months, marking which games on the production schedule have artwork at the printers, so we know those are more certain.)

For new games - Imperial Struggle is a good data point, since it rocketed through the process as quick as possible, and is now sitting with about 1300 orders. And it's scheduled for Q3 of next year. So about a year is probably about as fast as possible for a new game - however, I would point out we have seen no actual artwork yet, so it's unclear what the status is for that.

- Somebody asked if games come off the list after making P500 - there was one a couple of months ago...here it is - Cactus Air Force. The removal note said:

Quote:
I 'm just going to lead with the bad news. Designer Terry Simo has recently contacted us and explained that due to job constraints, he just can't commit at this point to a finish date on Cactus Air Force . He's going to keep working on it as time allows, but he feels uncomfortable having the game on P500 but really not having any idea when the development will be complete.

We appreciate Terry's candor and agree that for now, Cactus Air Force needs to come off the list. So, effective today, we are removing it and cancelling all P500 orders for it. When Terry and his team have it ready to go, we'll put it back on the list, and judging from the (1400+) order interest to date, it should get plenty of orders at that point and have a production slot very quickly.


Hope it helps to consolidate this -

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Steven Mitchell
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How many preorders a game currently has, how long since it surpassed 500, estimates on when the design and development work will make it ready for publication, how long artwork and layout will take to finish, whether it should be batched with another print run...

All of those are considerations in putting a game in the queue.
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Ryan Keane
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scottgillispie wrote:

- Somebody asked if games come off the list after making P500 - there was one a couple of months ago...here it is - Cactus Air Force. The removal note said:

Quote:
I 'm just going to lead with the bad news. Designer Terry Simo has recently contacted us and explained that due to job constraints, he just can't commit at this point to a finish date on Cactus Air Force . He's going to keep working on it as time allows, but he feels uncomfortable having the game on P500 but really not having any idea when the development will be complete.

We appreciate Terry's candor and agree that for now, Cactus Air Force needs to come off the list. So, effective today, we are removing it and cancelling all P500 orders for it. When Terry and his team have it ready to go, we'll put it back on the list, and judging from the (1400+) order interest to date, it should get plenty of orders at that point and have a production slot very quickly.


Hope it helps to consolidate this -



I really appreciate how good GMT is about providing its projected publication schedule each month and upfront about when a game is going to take a lot longer to develop. In the age of established game companies either going the hype-machine/stretch goals-based Kickstarter model or getting bought up by Asmodee, I am leaning more and more towards only wanting to support GMT and their honest, no frills P500 model.

Plus it's very nice to not have to pay until the game ships to me. Yes, there is still the risk that I'm buying a new game before anyone has reviewed it, but many (most?) GMT games have designers that are committed to providing lots of information to the community about the game, the design process, and playtesting session reports.
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rstites25 wrote:
Are there any games that have made it to 500 that GMT has taken off the list and decided not to print?


Yes. I had thrown in on Rising Glory, a Nappy 20 system but they bailed on it. That was a bit frustrating but I guess I managed.
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A Day
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I swear I remember GMT posting a "how we do p500's" in a company post sometime in the last 6 months....


anyways here is the p500 page wordage

"Once a game is available to order from the P500 list, you decide whether you want the game. If you do, you order it by credit card, and we add your name to the list of buyers. We DO NOT CHARGE YOUR CARD.

When we reach 500 buyers, the game has passed P500 and has “made the cut" (see note on how this is evolving, below) we begin to wrap up playtesting and begin final editing and prepare for production .

Then when the game is ready for final production (usually about 700-750 orders), we announce a Charge Date (the date we actually charge your card for the game + shipping).

We aim to ship the game in 12 weeks or less from that Charge Date. Occasionally, some products may have longer lead times which we announce before charging, and others may be delayed in production."


oh yeah, I think it was in this post, its a very worthy read if you have stuff on pre-order or plan to pre-order. (I think it will answer most peoples questions):

http://www.gmtupdate.com/2016/july/so-whats-the-deal-with-ga...



 
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This might seem like a daft question, but if you weren't on the P500 bandwagon, and such an item has been charged and is shipping right now, can you still purchase it?

To illustrate: I'd like to pick up the third edition of Sekigahara, but how many of them have been made - just enough to cover the P500 folks, or will there be "leftovers" for those of us late to the party?

My guess is the latter - I just have to pay retail for it, not the P500 price.
 
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Mark
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junkers wrote:
This might seem like a daft question, but if you weren't on the P500 bandwagon, and such an item has been charged and is shipping right now, can you still purchase it?

To illustrate: I'd like to pick up the third edition of Sekigahara, but how many of them have been made - just enough to cover the P500 folks, or will there be "leftovers" for those of us late to the party?

My guess is the latter - I just have to pay retail for it, not the P500 price.


Sekigahara is still available for the P500 price. It doesn't ship until the 22nd so I'm pretty sure you can still get it at the discount price.

Link
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Kevin C.
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I just have to pay retail for it, not the P500 price.


Retail is often less than the P500 price due to shipping and discounts from other sites.

I paid $19 to ship Liberty and Death. So, it was over $90. Falling Sky came in just under that.

There are threads about this and GMT says it is working on trying to find shipping alternatives, but P500, to my mind, is for people that want to make sure the game gets made and are willing to pay more to do so.

It is true that for popular games, you could wind up not getting a copy, but you can actually pre-order many of these games on CSI and MM now.

I P500 the games I want because I love GMT, but if somehow I missed the boat and had to buy it at retail, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for my wallet.

Kevin
 
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Thanks for the quick responses, fellas.

I'll try and get on it to capitalize on that price.
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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PeteyWA wrote:
How long does it usually take for a game to be produced once it crosses the P500 threshold?

I see that Triumph and Tragedy is on 498 this morning, so basically I guess I'm asking, "when do I get my game?"



Manoeuvre: Distant Lands crossed 500 October 2015. Currently it's scheduled for March 2017 IIRC.
So if T&T followed the same pace, you could expect it around Spring 2018...
 
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Steven Mitchell
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junkers wrote:
This might seem like a daft question, but if you weren't on the P500 bandwagon, and such an item has been charged and is shipping right now, can you still purchase it?

To illustrate: I'd like to pick up the third edition of Sekigahara, but how many of them have been made - just enough to cover the P500 folks, or will there be "leftovers" for those of us late to the party?

My guess is the latter - I just have to pay retail for it, not the P500 price.


It's always the case that, whatever price is currently listed on GMT's site, that's the price you can order it for. And GMT's usual practice is not to raise the price until they start shipping.
 
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Lance McMillan
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The reality is that while it's called P500, it would be more accurate to call it the P750 program. While occasional games that hit 500 subscriptions do get moved ahead into the production queue, most are held until they reach about 750; hitting 500 simply means they're less likely to purge that title off the list (they'll let it languish there for years, hoping it will slowly trickle up to the actual 750 mark).
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junkers wrote:
This might seem like a daft question, but if you weren't on the P500 bandwagon, and such an item has been charged and is shipping right now, can you still purchase it?

To illustrate: I'd like to pick up the third edition of Sekigahara, but how many of them have been made - just enough to cover the P500 folks, or will there be "leftovers" for those of us late to the party?

My guess is the latter - I just have to pay retail for it, not the P500 price.


I imagine that they produce many more copies than the P500 orders require. Having reprinted a proven seller, they'll want to keep the game available for a while (and available to retailers). They don't gain anything by producing a rarity available only to those who jumped in before an arbitrary deadline.
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Lancer4321 wrote:
The reality is that while it's called P500, it would be more accurate to call it the P750 program. While occasional games that hit 500 subscriptions do get moved ahead into the production queue, most are held until they reach about 750; hitting 500 simply means they're less likely to purge that title off the list (they'll let it languish there for years, hoping it will slowly trickle up to the actual 750 mark).


That may have been true for a while, but I suspect there is no magic number after 500 anymore. The current glut of titles that have made the cut have rendered it meaningless. Titles will get printed as they are ready, with considerations for room on the schedule and overall popularity (preorders and retailer orders).

It's worth nothing that production slots are mapped out for the next 12 months already. That means even if, say, Cataclysm: A Second World War were press-ready, it could be a year before it actually gets printed. Of course, if there were to be a sudden surge of orders, GMT might bump it up the list.

TL;DR -- I doubt there's a rule, and GMT takes into consideration a number of different factors when determining their printing schedule.
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Ryan Keane
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natsean wrote:
Quote:
I just have to pay retail for it, not the P500 price.


Retail is often less than the P500 price due to shipping and discounts from other sites.

I paid $19 to ship Liberty and Death. So, it was over $90. Falling Sky came in just under that.

There are threads about this and GMT says it is working on trying to find shipping alternatives, but P500, to my mind, is for people that want to make sure the game gets made and are willing to pay more to do so.

It is true that for popular games, you could wind up not getting a copy, but you can actually pre-order many of these games on CSI and MM now.

I P500 the games I want because I love GMT, but if somehow I missed the boat and had to buy it at retail, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing for my wallet.

Kevin


Is this pretty consistently true? That pre-ordering from GMT on the P500 list at the pre-shipping discounted price is still more expensive than getting it from a on-line store? Or is it just the GMT shipping price that kicks the total over the on-line store's discount price?
 
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