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Subject: "Bah! *This* game is way too easy to beat...." rss

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mortego

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Have you ever said this or wrote this here on BGG only to have a lot of people fire back and say not it's not an easy *game* to beat or have you ever read or heard someone say that and think to yourself, "What? That *game* is NOT easy to beat, they must be cheating..." or something to that effect.

I seem to hear this a lot from fans of any of the Arkham Horror Files games, like Arkham Horror, Eldritch Horror, either of the mansions of Madness games or Elder Sign and it annoys the hell out of me.

Eldritch Horror is easier than Arkham Horror to beat but if your win percentage in EH is 100% to 0% win-loss then you're cheating or just not playing it right.

Game of Thrones the board game is another one, it's NOT easy to beat the age group is NOT set too high, i'm sorry but children under 5 can't PLAY GoT.

So, have you had this happen to you where you're blind sided after having said that Twilight Struggle is pretty comparable to CandyLand only to have some idiot tell you it's not an easy game to beat or have you read someone actually calling a hard game to play an easy to beat game and think to youself, "Say whaaaaa?"

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David Moffett
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Re: "Bah! *This* gmae is way too easy to beat...."
Not exactly but I was routinely floored by the multiple pronouncements that Defenders of the Realm was incredibly easy back when my group and I played it. We only ran through it six times but we lost every single time, and usually by quite a bit.
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Michael McKibbin
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Re: "Bah! *This* gmae is way too easy to beat...."
I've found Elder Sign to be hit or miss, with pretty lopsided wins or losses depending on how the first couple of rounds go, so I can see someone stringing together 3 or 4 wins in a row and thinking the game is too easy. It's only a matter of time before the game hands you your @$$.

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jeremy root
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Re: "Bah! *This* gmae is way too easy to beat...."
We may be doing something wrong, but it seems like Pandemic is a little on the easy side. First time we got our behinds handed to us, but after that we were on a roll of wins. The last couple being almost a walk in the park. Granted I think we have a total of 6 plays under our belt. 4 of them 2 player and 2 of them at 3 player.
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Jason
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jerkyroot wrote:
We may be doing something wrong, but it seems like Pandemic is a little on the easy side. First time we got our behinds handed to us, but after that we were on a roll of wins. The last couple being almost a walk in the park. Granted I think we have a total of 6 plays under our belt. 4 of them 2 player and 2 of them at 3 player.

The game is easier with fewer players especially if there's good synergy between your roles. Randomized roles can increase the difficulty. Player count changes the difficulty a little. Although, the best way to scale difficulty is to add Epidemics. For me, 6 felt like it was about the sweet spot for base game difficulty. Once you add expansions there's so many options to increase or decrease difficulty which makes the game more interesting.
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Francisco Gutierrez
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Bah, Git Gud. I had a 100% win rate in Eldritch Horror when it was first released. I played around 8 games; 2 against each GOO, I think.

A Lot of groups at my FLGS were complaining that the game was way harder than arkham. My group, after playing against each GOO, boasted we had never lost and found the game far easier than Arkham.

Two seperate groups called us on it and had us play with them, each time it was the first time that group had won. I'm certain I played correctly* unless the whole store was playing incorrectly. Sold the game before any expansions were announced.

*we played with a minor variant (basically someone else read the card for you and if the card had you make a decision, you weren't told the consequences before you chose)

 
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Erik Andersson
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This was the case with Legendary Encounters: An Alien Deck Building Game for us. We (3 players) lost 11 times before beating the first scenario. I have heard of several people that never lost it
 
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Christopher Dearlove
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jerkyroot wrote:
We may be doing something wrong, but it seems like Pandemic is a little on the easy side. First time we got our behinds handed to us, but after that we were on a roll of wins. The last couple being almost a walk in the park. Granted I think we have a total of 6 plays under our belt. 4 of them 2 player and 2 of them at 3 player.


How many epidemic cards?
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Clive Cleland
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Elder Sign is a game of playing the odds, and at every turn the rules nudge those odds in your favour. This is only meaningful if you actually pay serious attention to those odds - and these seem to be the players who find the game delivers a win every time. That doesn't mean every play is a walk in the park, but if you win every time then you reach for a more difficult game and find it's not there.

My experience is if you don't calculate the odds well you'll have an intense and difficult game and lose fairly often. For some people this is obvious and assumed, but for others it's a subtle thing they haven't quite caught onto.

On my own, I seem to lose fairly often, and have an intense time of it, but it's still a hugely fun game. I once played with someone who tuned right into the odds from their first play and, even if it was a long game, it felt like an almost mechanical easy win.

I'm a slow learner, but have a lot of fun about it.
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Darth Heisenberg
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Couldn't care less if someone thinks I didn't get the rules right.

What really annoys me is playing the rules wrong, so I thoroughly read and ask my doubts.
 
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Clare Johnson
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Yggdrasil is the one for us, we have a 95% win rate but often hear complains about how difficult it is.

I have repeatedly double checked the rules and I don't think we are missing anything and/or playing it incorrectly
 
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jeremy root
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Dearlove wrote:
jerkyroot wrote:
We may be doing something wrong, but it seems like Pandemic is a little on the easy side. First time we got our behinds handed to us, but after that we were on a roll of wins. The last couple being almost a walk in the park. Granted I think we have a total of 6 plays under our belt. 4 of them 2 player and 2 of them at 3 player.


How many epidemic cards?


Been over a year since we played, so I may be off on this, but it seems like we started with 4 for the first 2 games. Bumped up to 5 for 2, then 6 for 2. I think 6 is the max? We just have the base game, no expansions.
 
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jeremy root
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VaultBoy wrote:
jerkyroot wrote:
We may be doing something wrong, but it seems like Pandemic is a little on the easy side. First time we got our behinds handed to us, but after that we were on a roll of wins. The last couple being almost a walk in the park. Granted I think we have a total of 6 plays under our belt. 4 of them 2 player and 2 of them at 3 player.

The game is easier with fewer players especially if there's good synergy between your roles. Randomized roles can increase the difficulty. Player count changes the difficulty a little. Although, the best way to scale difficulty is to add Epidemics. For me, 6 felt like it was about the sweet spot for base game difficulty. Once you add expansions there's so many options to increase or decrease difficulty which makes the game more interesting.


We always randomly drew for our roles. Most of the games we play are 2 player, so maybe we'll try 2 roles each next time to see if that helps.
 
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Ron
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exparrot wrote:
Yggdrasil is the one for us, we have a 95% win rate but often hear complains about how difficult it is.

I have repeatedly double checked the rules and I don't think we are missing anything and/or playing it incorrectly

Really? There are people who consider Yggdrasil hard? I have played it 11 times, I think, and have yet to lose a single game. It's my one disappointment with the game. Though I'll admit we haven't used the added cards that should make it more difficult yet.
 
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Geki
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exparrot wrote:
Yggdrasil is the one for us, we have a 95% win rate but often hear complains about how difficult it is.

I have repeatedly double checked the rules and I don't think we are missing anything and/or playing it incorrectly


Just out of curiosity, what level are you playing this at?
What are your usual scores?
 
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Pete
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We're on something like a 14-game losing streak on Forbidden Desert, a game many people say is too easy.

Pete (was playing on "normal" difficulty)
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Geki
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Wormaap wrote:
exparrot wrote:
Yggdrasil is the one for us, we have a 95% win rate but often hear complains about how difficult it is.

I have repeatedly double checked the rules and I don't think we are missing anything and/or playing it incorrectly

Really? There are people who consider Yggdrasil hard? I have played it 11 times, I think, and have yet to lose a single game. It's my one disappointment with the game. Though I'll admit we haven't used the added cards that should make it more difficult yet.


I would suggest to immediately add the special enemies cards, without which the game is really bland. After that, if you still find it easy (which is not unlikely if you have a grasp of the game), start adding in the Ragnarock cards.

On a scale from "0" special cards (like you were playing) to 10 (all hard enemies and all Ragnarocks), I'd say the tipping point where Losses > wins to be around 8.

Now I want to play Yggdrasil again

Keep me posted on your progress
 
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Stephen Miller
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plezercruz wrote:
We're on something like a 14-game losing streak on Forbidden Desert, a game many people say is too easy.

Pete (was playing on "normal" difficulty)


...Unless you play it the way they played it on Tabletop - i.e. blatantly cheating in your favour due to misunderstanding the rules - how does anyone consider it too easy? Or easy at all, for that matter?
 
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Michael Schneider
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For me it's Pandemic with OTB and ITL.
I have a 90%+ rate of winning.
 
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Eric Spalding
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I wonder how much of this simply comes down to luck. (I honestly don't know, just wondering.)

For example, if you have about 1000 people flip a coin 10 times in a row, odds are pretty good that someone will get 10 heads and someone will get 10 tails.

Similarly if a co-op game has an overall expected win rate of 50% with reasonable strategy, if you get enough gaming groups together, somebody is going to have a pretty long win streak and someone else is going to have a losing streak. Using post-hoc reasoning, they'll then wonder what they did right/wrong for that streak to occur.

Obviously these games are more complex than flipping a coin, so I don't know how you could determine what the long term win rate "should" be.
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Pete
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Gizensha wrote:
plezercruz wrote:
We're on something like a 14-game losing streak on Forbidden Desert, a game many people say is too easy.

Pete (was playing on "normal" difficulty)


...Unless you play it the way they played it on Tabletop - i.e. blatantly cheating in your favour due to misunderstanding the rules - how does anyone consider it too easy? Or easy at all, for that matter?
We typically play with 4 players. It's hard.

I've played with 2 and 3. It's a lot easier.

Pete (thinks that's why)
 
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Quantum Jack
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I have only lost one game of elder sign (the first one, when we got some rules wrong) since then it is easy wins. Its still fun, but not something I play for a challenge.

On the other hand, I have incredible difficulty with space hulk: death angel.

Yggdrasil, as i understand, scales so more players makes it harder. I have played 2 and 1 player and its a cakewalk. 6 players, otoh, seems nigh impossible (especially with special cards added).
 
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Geki
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Quantum_Jack wrote:
I have only lost one game of elder sign (the first one, when we got some rules wrong) since then it is easy wins. Its still fun, but not something I play for a challenge.

On the other hand, I have incredible difficulty with space hulk: death angel.

Yggdrasil, as i understand, scales so more players makes it harder. I have played 2 and 1 player and its a cakewalk. 6 players, otoh, seems nigh impossible (especially with special cards added).


Space hulk is another one that seemed easy to us with 2 or 4 players, and considerably harder with 3.
 
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Joe Salamone
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If you use the solitaire scale in Bremerhaven to score your solo games, you will think the game is too easy. So, I'd suggest ignoring the scale and just keep trying to beat your previous high score.
 
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Adam Tucker
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VaultBoy wrote:
The game is easier with fewer players especially if ...

plezercruz wrote:
We typically play with 4 players. It's hard.

I've played with 2 and 3. It's a lot easier.

geki wrote:
Space hulk is another one that seemed easy to us with 2 or 4 players, and considerably harder with 3.

Many, if not most or all, coops scale poorly with player count. If someone claims that a game is too easy or too hard, player count should be among the first questions asked.

killerjoe1962 wrote:
So, have you had this happen to you where you're blind sided after having said that Twilight Struggle is pretty comparable to CandyLand only to have some idiot tell you it's not an easy game to beat or have you read someone actually calling a hard game to play an easy to beat game and think to youself, "Say whaaaaa?"
Well, I don't believe I've ever compared Twilight Struggle to Candy Land, but whenever someone makes a claim of a game being too hard or too easy I'm exceptionally skeptical.

Sure, there are some games that are too easy (in general), or at least too easy (again, in general) at certain player counts, and others that are incredibly hard, and even some that are broken (the original release rules for the cooperative version of Dark Gothic, for example). However, in general, when some posts something like the following quote, my general response is "Post a video, or 'Lies'."

joetaco wrote:
Bah, Git Gud. I had a 100% win rate in Eldritch Horror when it was first released. I played around 8 games; 2 against each GOO, I think.

A Lot of groups at my FLGS were complaining that the game was way harder than arkham. My group, after playing against each GOO, boasted we had never lost and found the game far easier than Arkham.

Two seperate groups called us on it and had us play with them, each time it was the first time that group had won. I'm certain I played correctly* unless the whole store was playing incorrectly. Sold the game before any expansions were announced.

*we played with a minor variant (basically someone else read the card for you and if the card had you make a decision, you weren't told the consequences before you chose)
Now, Eldritch Horror is a bit of an odd case, in that having a single game that is a relative cakewalk isn't unlikely, but having 8 or 10 is. Especially considering some of the options available for making the game more difficult (i.e., use only the hard mythos cards), means that I am unlikely to take such statements of "too easy" seriously or as at all legitimate.

Eldritch Horror is also a bit odd when it comes to scaling. In general it is most difficult with 5 investigators, but there are a large number of set-ups/draws that can easily make this more difficult with 1 investigator.
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