$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 56.47

4,110 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
25.9% of Goal | 29 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
21 Posts

Runebound (Third Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Variant for mixing all shop decks together...? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
London
flag msg tools
designer
Overtext pending moderation...
mbmbmbmbmb
Like many people, I'd prefer not to have to separate out all the different shop decks between games, and would rather just keep everything mixed together. However, using the rules-as-written, I've found that the markets can become susceptible to "streakiness", with an abundance of unwanted Goods cards.

So does anyone have any ideas to help ameliorate that effect?

The best I can come up with at the moment is:

- When performing a Shop action, if you choose not to buy a card, you must discard the cheapest card in the market.

This should cause the items to gradually increase in value as the game goes on, though I'm not sure if there would still be an issue of too many high-cost items appearing in the markets in the early game. Thoughts?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Frank La Terra
Australia
flag msg tools
That could result in a rooted early game, and I don't see it addressing your issue much. Do people really do shop actions when they aren't interested with anything on display?

I didn't have an issue with a big shop deck in 1st ed and doubt I would have one here either, but If I did I would try one of the following house rules:

1) Explore Market: There is a new "Explore market" action available when in a city. Spend an action while in the city to draw 3 new Shop cards from the deck to add to the market, then choose 3 of the 6 cards to discard.
Side Effect: This would allow for people to fish the market in a limited fashion.

2) Refresh Market: When refreshing adventure markers, each player in turn order draws 1 card from the Shop deck and adds it to any of the 4 markets, discarding one of the other cards in that market.
Side Effect: Could be used as a 'weapon' to replace items you suspect your opponents are saving for.

3) Random Refresh Market: When refreshing adventure markers, randomly dicard 1 card in each market replacing it with a card from the Shop deck.
Side Effect: Minor luck increase in the game.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
i like your "explore the market" option, you could even make that the default instead of drawing 1 then buying you could draw 3 then buy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
cranky hobbit
Australia
flag msg tools
mb
I thought that was already a rule in this edition where you can still shop, not buy anything and then discard a card from the market after you've drawn a card to the market in the normal shop action?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
cranky_hobbit wrote:
I thought that was already a rule in this edition where you can still shop, not buy anything and then discard a card from the market after you've drawn a card to the market in the normal shop action?


yes but with the suggested explore the market you do 3 cards not 1
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Regarding the OP, firstly remember you really don't need to separate the cards every game. Unless your games are very different to ours you usually don't see more than half the deck in a game (that would be 12 cards initially then 18 shop actions) so once set up a deck should really last a few games before you switch a set out for one you weren't using.

Secondly, I'm not sure why Goods are unwanted. To me they are a safe bet and it's rare I wouldn't take them if I don't manage to find something I really want.

The suggested Explore rule sounds interesting, though I think it might effectively invalidate the Advertisement goods?

The Refresh idea seems OK, but if it could be potentially used as a weapon it might become counterproductive. You could allow all other players to Veto in order to stop someone taking an asset. That way it increases turnover of unwanted items only.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Greg
United States
Pleasant Hill
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I like the refresh market idea.

You could also completely replenish the markets to begin the second act.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:

The Refresh idea seems OK, but if it could be potentially used as a weapon it might become counterproductive. You could allow all other players to Veto in order to stop someone taking an asset. That way it increases turnover of unwanted items only.


you can already use it as a weapon with the rules as written.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
Orion3T wrote:

The Refresh idea seems OK, but if it could be potentially used as a weapon it might become counterproductive. You could allow all other players to Veto in order to stop someone taking an asset. That way it increases turnover of unwanted items only.


you can already use it as a weapon with the rules as written.


Use what as a weapon? There is no Refresh Market rule in the rules as written.

I'm referring to the suggestion above to let each player draw 1 asset and replace something in the markets. That's not in the rules, it's a house rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
Orion3T wrote:

The Refresh idea seems OK, but if it could be potentially used as a weapon it might become counterproductive. You could allow all other players to Veto in order to stop someone taking an asset. That way it increases turnover of unwanted items only.


you can already use it as a weapon with the rules as written.


Use what as a weapon? There is no Refresh Market rule in the rules as written.

I'm referring to the suggestion above to let each player draw 1 asset and replace something in the markets. That's not in the rules, it's a house rule.


the rules as written say when you shop you draw a market card then buy or discard one. you shop and then discard something someone else needs. that is how you use the rule as written as a weapon.

the refresh market thing would make it more prominent though
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
the rules as written say when you shop you draw a market card then buy or discard one. you shop and then discard something someone else needs. that is how you use the rule as written as a weapon.

the refresh market thing would make it more prominent though


OK I see what you mean. But I think that's totally different since 1) You have to get to the city in question (usually) 2) It costs an action and 3) You would probably only do this if there really is nothing there you want. In contrast the suggested action would be free for everyone and they could discard from anywhere.

I think for a change intended to improve market turnover so there are more assets people want, it is more crucial that the rule not end up being counterproductive because people can use it to actually remove assets people wanted to buy. If it allowed that, it would seem to be doing the opposite of what was intended.

So, it's not just more prominent. In this case it wouldn't be worth adding at all (at least not for that reason) without something in place to prevent people from using it in this way.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
the rules as written say when you shop you draw a market card then buy or discard one. you shop and then discard something someone else needs. that is how you use the rule as written as a weapon.

the refresh market thing would make it more prominent though


OK I see what you mean. But I think that's totally different since 1) You have to get to the city in question (usually) 2) It costs an action and 3) You would probably only do this if there really is nothing there you want. In contrast the suggested action would be free for everyone and they could discard from anywhere.

I think for a change intended to improve market turnover so there are more assets people want, it is more crucial that the rule not end up being counterproductive because people can use it to actually remove assets people wanted to buy. If it allowed that, it would seem to be doing the opposite of what was intended.

So, it's not just more prominent. In this case it wouldn't be worth adding at all (at least not for that reason) without something in place to prevent people from using it in this way.


if i were going to implement such a rule (and i may when i get extra decks of market cards) i would just replace the draw 1 on a shop action with a draw 3 with a shop action. this would increase market turnover, although probably would make lucky draws more relevant. my group doesnt usually hate shop so i dont think that would be a problem
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
if i were going to implement such a rule (and i may when i get extra decks of market cards) i would just replace the draw 1 on a shop action with a draw 3 with a shop action. this would increase market turnover, although probably would make lucky draws more relevant. my group doesnt usually hate shop so i dont think that would be a problem


Sure - that would be fine in the base game, but as I already pointed out it does invalidate Advertisement somewhat. You could make that draw 6 extra cards I suppose.

Personally I don't have any problems with the rules as they are, I'm just commenting on the suggested changes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
if i were going to implement such a rule (and i may when i get extra decks of market cards) i would just replace the draw 1 on a shop action with a draw 3 with a shop action. this would increase market turnover, although probably would make lucky draws more relevant. my group doesnt usually hate shop so i dont think that would be a problem


Sure - that would be fine in the base game, but as I already pointed out it does invalidate Advertisement somewhat. You could make that draw 6 extra cards I suppose.

Personally I don't have any problems with the rules as they are, I'm just commenting on the suggested changes.


i dont think 3 extra cards would invalidate advertisement. as written you rarely want to go to a shop unless it definitely has something you want. with 3 cards you may want to try your luck. i dont necessarily see that as a bad thing IMO especially with a shop deck you want to farm through. although i may rule where the cards to discard down to 3 are random to prevent the hate shopping thing.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
i dont think 3 extra cards would invalidate advertisement. as written you rarely want to go to a shop unless it definitely has something you want.


Hmm I'm not sure that's our experience. We will quite often shop because we have money to spend, there might not be anything we really want but there might be a Goods item to fall back on. Advertisement was a great addition because it let players effectively invest 2 actions to perform a more efficient shop in the event there isn't anything they specifically wanted.

But it sounds like you already would think Advertisement is unnecessary. And in any case if someone did decide to use it you could just let them draw 3 extra cards (making 6 in total) which I think is what the card says anyway.

I see some interesting ideas but nothing yet which I personally feel the need to change. I think the default rules are generally fine, and Advertisement allows a bit more turnover if you include that set.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
i dont think 3 extra cards would invalidate advertisement. as written you rarely want to go to a shop unless it definitely has something you want.


Hmm I'm not sure that's our experience. We will quite often shop because we have money to spend, there might not be anything we really want but there might be a Goods item to fall back on. Advertisement was a great addition because it let players effectively invest 2 actions to perform a more efficient shop in the event there isn't anything they specifically wanted.

But it sounds like you already would think Advertisement is unnecessary. And in any case if someone did decide to use it you could just let them draw 3 extra cards (making 6 in total) which I think is what the card says anyway.

I see some interesting ideas but nothing yet which I personally feel the need to change. I think the default rules are generally fine, and Advertisement allows a bit more turnover if you include that set.


ohhhhh advertisement is a card..... not sure what it does, is it in an expansion? by advertisement i thought you meant the display of cards available in each shop
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
ohhhhh advertisement is a card..... not sure what it does, is it in an expansion? by advertisement i thought you meant the display of cards available in each shop


Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. It's in one of the expansions.

Not a biggie, but I thought it was a cool item to have come up occasionally. My son has used it to great effect when he had quite a lot of gold to spend, it would be a shame to make it redundant.

But for someone who doesn't even have that expansion, it's not a consideration of course. It's not a problem for me because I don't generally feel any change is necessary and we don't usually house rule, though I'm always interested in ideas and analysis, or warning people of possible unwanted side effects if they do choose to house rule.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
ohhhhh advertisement is a card..... not sure what it does, is it in an expansion? by advertisement i thought you meant the display of cards available in each shop


Yes, sorry I wasn't clear. It's in one of the expansions.

Not a biggie, but I thought it was a cool item to have come up occasionally. My son has used it to great effect when he had quite a lot of gold to spend, it would be a shame to make it redundant.

But for someone who doesn't even have that expansion, it's not a consideration of course. It's not a problem for me because I don't generally feel any change is necessary and we don't usually house rule, though I'm always interested in ideas and analysis, or warning people of possible unwanted side effects if they do choose to house rule.


Well I plan to get all the expansions an I'd hate to separate out the shop deck I love more variety but I'd like to combat streakiness
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
Well I plan to get all the expansions an I'd hate to separate out the shop deck I love more variety but I'd like to combat streakiness


Honestly I think people worry more about swapping/sorting decks than is necessary. You don't need to swap or separate anything after or before every game. You could easily play several games with one setup, then if you fancy a change swap one set of assets, 1 set of skills. You can re-deal adventure decks when you change scenario, since that's when you need to de-sort the scenario cards anyway and will only add as long as it takes to shuffle them all together and deal 20.

Maybe all that will take 5-10 minute every 4-6 games or so?

That applies to all types of cards - just swap them out when you feel the need for a change, and the ones you haven't used for a while will seem fresh and new when you try them with different combinations.

Separating and swapping decks every game does sound laborious and not fun but I don't think it's remotely necessary, even though it's what the rules seem to suggest.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Marc Bennett
United States
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Orion3T wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
Well I plan to get all the expansions an I'd hate to separate out the shop deck I love more variety but I'd like to combat streakiness


Honestly I think people worry more about swapping/sorting decks than is necessary. You don't need to swap or separate anything after or before every game. You could easily play several games with one setup, then if you fancy a change swap one set of assets, 1 set of skills. You can re-deal adventure decks when you change scenario, since that's when you need to de-sort the scenario cards anyway and will only add as long as it takes to shuffle them all together and deal 20.

Maybe all that will take 5-10 minute every 4-6 games or so?

That applies to all types of cards - just swap them out when you feel the need for a change, and the ones you haven't used for a while will seem fresh and new when you try them with different combinations.

Separating and swapping decks every game does sound laborious and not fun but I don't think it's remotely necessary, even though it's what the rules seem to suggest.

i like how they handled the extra adventure cards, thats fine and a great idea, the skill decks i will probably find sets i like and keep them around a while, but the shop deck... you cant have too much variety in the shop deck
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Williams
Scotland
Elgin
Moray
flag msg tools
mbmb
Klaxas wrote:
i like how they handled the extra adventure cards, thats fine and a great idea, the skill decks i will probably find sets i like and keep them around a while, but the shop deck... you cant have too much variety in the shop deck


Of the 3 card types the assets are probably the least problematic. If you just chuck everything in then the markets will be less consistent (more chance of getting lots of stuff you can't afford/don't want) but probably not problematically so.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.