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Subject: Can actions affect minions played after them? rss

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Nick T
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Can actions affect minions played after them? For example:

Quote:
Form Mergacon - Choose a base. Each of your minions there gains +1 power until the end of the turn.


I see two possible interpretations here:

Option 1.) Your minions that are currently on the chosen base get +1 power. New minions played there do not. If a minion moves away from that base this turn, it retains the +1 power (until the end of the turn).

Option 2.) As long as one of your minions is at the chosen base, it has +1 power (until the end of the turn). This includes minions already there, as well as minions that move there or are played there after the action has been played. Minions that move away no longer retain the +1 power.

A similar card would be the Wolves' Frenzy:

Quote:
Frenzy - Each of your minions with power 4 or more gains +1 power until the end of the turn.


I believe this card should be played in the same way as the first, either (1) affecting only power 4+ minions that are currently in play, or (2) affecting power 4+ minions that are played after or have their power increased to 4+ after Frenzy is played.
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Andrew Kapish
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I belong to the option 1 camp.
Unless otherwise stated, Minions and Actions can only affect what is present while they are played.

This is why we have the keyword "Ongoing".
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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It is option 1.

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Andre Oliveira
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I'd go with 2 the card's ability doesn't put counters or anything on the minions.
It's a localized temporary effect.
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Garry Larkus
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I'm also for option 2.
I see the effects presented as "lingering" until end of turn and "each minion" means, well exactly that, each and every minion that meets the requirements. No matter if they already were in play or enter play after the action was played. As long as they are played on or moved to the chosen base or have power 4+ they profit from the effect that "lingers on" until the end of the turn.

Oh and one thing I just noticed regarding option 1: In my opinion a minion that moves away from the chosen base would not keep the +1 power since it is the base that confers this bonus. The action clearly says "choose a base" and "minion there".
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Daniel F
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Glarkus wrote:
Oh and one thing I just noticed regarding option 1: In my opinion a minion that moves away from the chosen base would not keep the +1 power since it is the base that confers this bonus. The action clearly says "choose a base" and "minion there".


I think the question is does the effect apply once, when it is played (ie these minions here now get +power no matter what), or is the effect recalculated throughout the turn as conditions apply. I'm split on 1 vs 2, but I do think that if you pick 1, you can't lose the power by moving away, as the effect already happened.
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Andre Oliveira
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The effect, i.e. ability, is a conditional power gain that lasts until the end of the turn.

Imagine it as a field advantage - when playing in your field, you are stronger
 
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Vespert Ilio
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I believe it's option 2.

If it was option 1, it would have said "Choose a base. Give each of your minions there +1 power until the end of the turn.", which would indeed mean that only the minions that were there at the time of playing the action get +1 power and that they keep it if they move away.

Here it uses "gain" as the keyword. So, once you choose the base, the +1 power bonus remains on this base and only affects minions that are there, including minions that are played or moved there later.

For reference, in the Mythic Greek faction, Jason acts like a Form Mergacon you can trigger each turn.
Quote:
Jason (Minion) - Ongoing: After the first time you play an action each turn, choose a base. All of your minions there gain +1 power until the end of the turn.

and it has this clarification in the rulebook:
Quote:
Jason: Minions played after Jason in the same turn get his benefit. Minions moved off the chosen base lose the benefit.
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Brendon Browning
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It's option 1. I wasn't able to find it, but I believe a similar question was asked before. The answer was that a card that gets played and then immediately discarded (instant effect; not ongoing) only affects the cards that are currently in play. You have to keep in mind that the action is NOT ongoing. For the card in question, you choose a base, then do what it says. Done. The card goes in the discard pile, no lingering effect, other than what was specified to occur until the end of the turn for the cards affected.
Consider other instant affect cards, like crop circle: "choose a base. All minions get returned to their owners hands." If I play a minion on that base after I play crop circle, does it get returned to my hand? No. It's the same issue.
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Vespert Ilio
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Mervil wrote:
Consider other instant affect cards, like crop circle: "choose a base. All minions get returned to their owners hands." If I play a minion on that base after I play crop circle, does it get returned to my hand? No. It's the same issue.

It's not the same issue. Crop Circle's effect stops as soon as it's resolved, that's why future minions would not get returned. If it said "Choose a base. Until the end of the turn, each minion on that base is returned to its owner's hand", it would extend the effect and future minions would get returned.
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Vespert Ilio
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Alright, I found an official answer from barliman here regarding "instant" actions affecting cards played later.
Barliman wrote:
2) Yes, Howl, Swashbuckling & co. affect your minions played after them if it's during the same turn.
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Brendon Browning
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Nah.
Barliman or not, that answer is wrong.
Form Mergacon, Swashbuckling, and Howl are all instant actions. ALL of these are resolved immediately. Please note the deliberate lack of the word "ongoing".
This will be a stupid analogy, but it's what I'm envisioning in my head at this moment.
I see these cards that give increased power until the end of the turn functioning as if somebody brought a paint bomb into the room and set it off. All of your minions at that base at that time are pink until the end of the turn. You can play more minions at the base, but the paint bomb already exploded,and therefore they are too late to enjoy being pink until the end of the turn.
It's not a paint sprinkler, it's a paint bomb.
It's not an ongoing effect, it's an instant action.
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Jay Young
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Mervil wrote:
Nah.
Barliman or not, that answer is wrong.
Form Mergacon, Swashbuckling, and Howl are all instant actions. ALL of these are resolved immediately. Please note the deliberate lack of the word "ongoing".
This will be a stupid analogy, but it's what I'm envisioning in my head at this moment.
I see these cards that give increased power until the end of the turn functioning as if somebody brought a paint bomb into the room and set it off. All of your minions at that base at that time are pink until the end of the turn. You can play more minions at the base, but the paint bomb already exploded,and therefore they are too late to enjoy being pink until the end of the turn.
It's not a paint sprinkler, it's a paint bomb.
It's not an ongoing effect, it's an instant action.


You do know Bryan Stout is officially at AeG, you can house rule what ever you want but you are wrong on the official ruling
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Andre Oliveira
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First look at the definition of "instant":
Quote:
instant (ĭn′stənt)
n.
1. A period of time so short as to be almost imperceptible. See Synonyms at moment.
2. A particular or precise time: at the instant of combustion.
3. Abbr. inst. The current month: your letter of the 15th instant.
4. A food or beverage designed for quick preparation.


Now compare those:
Quote:
2x Howl - Each of your minions gains +1 power until the end of your turn.


Quote:
1x Jolt - Place a +1 power counter on each of your minions.

Howl doesn't look as instantaneous as Jolt, does it?
In fact it "goes on" as long as it is the same turn and a minion is yours.
 
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Andrew Kapish
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zyocuh wrote:
You do know Bryan Stout is officially at AeG, you can house rule what ever you want but you are wrong on the official ruling

Sure, Bryan is official. And I'll concede to the ruling. But it's an incredibly sloppy and unintuitive ruling, one which contradicts the foundations of nearly every combo driven card game in existence.

Cards should only affect the current game state (what they "see") and timing should actually matter.
Cards which aren't marked as "Ongoing" in a game which utilizes the "Ongoing" keyword shouldn't have an "Ongoing" effect.
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Vespert Ilio
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To be fair, many rulings are unintuitive in this game, but they were still ruled that way.

If you use Solarshout's ability ("Talent: Play an extra action. Give this minion -2 power until the end of the turn.") and later remove that ability, the -2 power still stands until the end of the turn.

If you use Mind Lady's ability ("Talent: Choose another player's minion. That minion's abilities are cancelled until the start of your next turn.") and Mind Lady is later destroyed/returned/discarded/etc., the cancellation still stands until the start of your next turn.
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Daniel F
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andrewkapish wrote:
zyocuh wrote:
You do know Bryan Stout is officially at AeG, you can house rule what ever you want but you are wrong on the official ruling

Sure, Bryan is official. And I'll concede to the ruling. But it's an incredibly sloppy and unintuitive ruling, one which contradicts the foundations of nearly every combo driven card game in existence.


Totally agree. My roommate and I just got back into Smash Up and we were looking at this thinking "It seems pretty clear that it should just be instant, based on the card text, but I think I remember an unintuitive ruling..."
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Jay Young
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andrewkapish wrote:
zyocuh wrote:
You do know Bryan Stout is officially at AeG, you can house rule what ever you want but you are wrong on the official ruling

Sure, Bryan is official. And I'll concede to the ruling. But it's an incredibly sloppy and unintuitive ruling, one which contradicts the foundations of nearly every combo driven card game in existence.

Cards should only affect the current game state (what they "see") and timing should actually matter.
Cards which aren't marked as "Ongoing" in a game which utilizes the "Ongoing" keyword shouldn't have an "Ongoing" effect.


And you can play that way which is great, but since it an official ruling then it needs to be played like that. Not saying this game has a big enough following for a tournament but let's say there is one (I've seen a few at con's) and this situation popped up his ruling would be the say.
 
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Andrew Kapish
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zyocuh wrote:
andrewkapish wrote:
Sure, Bryan is official. And I'll concede to the ruling. But it's an incredibly sloppy and unintuitive ruling, one which contradicts the foundations of nearly every combo driven card game in existence.

Cards should only affect the current game state (what they "see") and timing should actually matter.
Cards which aren't marked as "Ongoing" in a game which utilizes the "Ongoing" keyword shouldn't have an "Ongoing" effect.


And you can play that way which is great, but since it an official ruling then it needs to be played like that. Not saying this game has a big enough following for a tournament but let's say there is one (I've seen a few at con's) and this situation popped up his ruling would be the say.


con·cede
verb

1. admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it.
"I had to concede that I'd overreacted"

synonyms: admit, acknowledge, accept, allow, grant, recognize, own, confess, agree
antonyms: deny

2. admit (defeat) in a contest.
"he conceded defeat"

synonyms: capitulate, give in, give, surrender, yield, give up, submit, raise the white flag
 
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Jay Young
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andrewkapish wrote:
zyocuh wrote:
andrewkapish wrote:
Sure, Bryan is official. And I'll concede to the ruling. But it's an incredibly sloppy and unintuitive ruling, one which contradicts the foundations of nearly every combo driven card game in existence.

Cards should only affect the current game state (what they "see") and timing should actually matter.
Cards which aren't marked as "Ongoing" in a game which utilizes the "Ongoing" keyword shouldn't have an "Ongoing" effect.


And you can play that way which is great, but since it an official ruling then it needs to be played like that. Not saying this game has a big enough following for a tournament but let's say there is one (I've seen a few at con's) and this situation popped up his ruling would be the say.


con·cede
verb

1. admit that something is true or valid after first denying or resisting it.
"I had to concede that I'd overreacted"

synonyms: admit, acknowledge, accept, allow, grant, recognize, own, confess, agree
antonyms: deny

2. admit (defeat) in a contest.
"he conceded defeat"

synonyms: capitulate, give in, give, surrender, yield, give up, submit, raise the white flag


That is great, what I was saying that you personally can still play that way though. That is one of the great things about this game. You can house rule pretty easily
 
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Chet C.
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Vespert wrote:
I believe it's option 2.

If it was option 1, it would have said "Choose a base. Give each of your minions there +1 power until the end of the turn.", which would indeed mean that only the minions that were there at the time of playing the action get +1 power and that they keep it if they move away.

Here it uses "gain" as the keyword. So, once you choose the base, the +1 power bonus remains on this base and only affects minions that are there, including minions that are played or moved there later.

For reference, in the Mythic Greek faction, Jason acts like a Form Mergacon you can trigger each turn.
Quote:
Jason (Minion) - Ongoing: After the first time you play an action each turn, choose a base. All of your minions there gain +1 power until the end of the turn.

and it has this clarification in the rulebook:
Quote:
Jason: Minions played after Jason in the same turn get his benefit. Minions moved off the chosen base lose the benefit.


I don't understand what you're saying about why it isn't option 1, but I think your evidence for option 2 is definitive. I've been playing with option 1, however I now confidently and begrudgingly throw my vote with option 2.

Although, if we ever get to vote on this, I'm going to vote for option 1.

Thanks for citing the rules.
 
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Chet C.
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desocupado wrote:
First look at the definition of "instant":
Quote:
instant (ĭn′stənt)
n.
1. A period of time so short as to be almost imperceptible. See Synonyms at moment.
2. A particular or precise time: at the instant of combustion.
3. Abbr. inst. The current month: your letter of the 15th instant.
4. A food or beverage designed for quick preparation.


Now compare those:
Quote:
2x Howl - Each of your minions gains +1 power until the end of your turn.


Quote:
1x Jolt - Place a +1 power counter on each of your minions.

Howl doesn't look as instantaneous as Jolt, does it?
In fact it "goes on" as long as it is the same turn and a minion is yours.


Given the nature of +1 power counters, the answer to your question is that Howl looks MUCH more instantaneous than Jolt, which has a permanent effect rather than a temporary effect.

If it were intended to benefit minions not yet played, it would have to be an ongoing ability, perhaps to be removed at the end of the turn. I don't think the "until the end of the turn" is a means of EXTENDING the duration of its effect, but rather a very clear means of LIMITING the duration. You cannot (currently) increase the power of a minion for a shorter period than "until the end of the turn," so this is functionally an instantaneous effect.

That's why I much prefer option 1 and am disappointed that option 2 is the official ruling.
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Kevin González
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Cheddarific wrote:
If it were intended to benefit minions not yet played, it would have to be an ongoing ability, perhaps to be removed at the end of the turn. I don't think the "until the end of the turn" is a means of EXTENDING the duration of its effect, but rather a very clear means of LIMITING the duration. You cannot (currently) increase the power of a minion for a shorter period than "until the end of the turn," so this is functionally an instantaneous effect.


No...just no. We have enough confusion with Infiltrate already (it's probably the most controversial card in the game.)

Wording is not perfect, but it clarifies well enough if you look at Jason's ruling and compare notes.
 
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Brendon Browning
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Cheddarific wrote:
If it were intended to benefit minions not yet played, it would have to be an ongoing ability, perhaps to be removed at the end of the turn. I don't think the "until the end of the turn" is a means of EXTENDING the duration of its effect, but rather a very clear means of LIMITING the duration. You cannot (currently) increase the power of a minion for a shorter period than "until the end of the turn," so this is functionally an instantaneous effect.

That's why I much prefer option 1 and am disappointed that option 2 is the official ruling.

Yes...just yes. This is exactly my interpretation, and the way the game should work. The fact is, "ongoing" cards exist. Cards use this mechanic, and it is text specifically defined in the rule book. Jason has ongoing in its text! Howl doesn't. Swashbuckling doesn't. Form Mergacon doesn't. We can't just make the cards work the way we want them to. Rules are rules. Jason (which again has ongoing text) has its own specific rule. The others do not. What we DO know about those cards is that they are NOT ongoing. "Until the end of the turn" on these cards serves only the purpose of ending the effect granted to minions already in play, not to allow somebody to keep applying the effect to new minions.
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Vespert Ilio
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Cheddarific wrote:

I don't understand what you're saying about why it isn't option 1, but I think your evidence for option 2 is definitive. I've been playing with option 1, however I now confidently and begrudgingly throw my vote with option 2.

Although, if we ever get to vote on this, I'm going to vote for option 1.

Thanks for citing the rules.

I don't know if you've noticed, but there are two wordings that exist to boost, for example, your minions' power until the end of the turn. The one that's being so controversial right now and that goes "your minions gain/get +1 power until the end of the turn". And another that goes "give your minions +1 power until the end of the turn" (like Captain Amazing, Elf Help Guru).
Now there's nothing to support this, but from a strict interpretation of the ability as it is written, if a card tells you to "give" power to your minions, you do it right away to the minions that are currently in play when you resolve it. If you play a minion later, it does not get +1 power because it was only "given" at the time you resolved the ability. Also, since power was "given" to minions on a base, even if they are moved away from it, there's no reason why they would lose the power boost. That's why (to me at least) the wording "give your minions +1 power until the end of the turn" matches option 1. It's just a guess, so AEG may come around and declare both formulations do the same thing. If they do, and if say Captain Amazing's ability was supposed to work like option 2, I don't get why they would bother with a new wording using "give your minions here etc." when "Talent: Your minions here gain +1 power until the end of the turn." would have done the trick if they really wanted to go with option 2.
 
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