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All right all you armchair generals and couch-bound marshals, here's your shot. Tell us just how to defeat terrorism. Detail is encouraged. Here's the parameters:

1. Terrorism will be defined as that which emanates from countries in the Mideast, Southeast Asia, and north/central Africa. You can label it Islamic, Arabic, Christian, Wack-a-doodle. Whatever.

2. Terrorists will be defined as those part of an organization or having been encouraged (you can call it radicalized if you want) by web sites or material from said organizations.

Note that this does not include domestic terrorists. An American example would be Timothy Fucking McVey (may he roast in the deepest pits of Hell).

And don't ask me about my solution. I've put it into numerous posts, and it slips out of your consciousness because it (A) does not include firebombing millions of innocent people, and (B) does not propose to throw open our borders, institute Sha'aria law, and require every world citizen to become a transgendered Muslim.

So, come on, dazzle us with your brilliance. leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.
 
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Re: Here's your chance: How to defeat modern Arab/Islamic terrorism
Defeat? As in, eliminate it? Note that I don't espouse this, but...

1) Stop all incoming travel from foreign countries.
2) Deport (or execute) all people from foreign countries in your country.
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remorseless1 wrote:
Leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I do not have any towering intellect. What I do have, though, is a bit of knowledge about Dresden in 1945.

Granted, the US and British "solution" to the German problem in the early months of 1945 were controversial; however, it cannot be argued that it wasn't effective at contributing to the ultimate surrender of the Third Reich just a few months later.

I understand you, personally, do not think firebombing millions of innocent people is a viable alternative. Approximately 25,000 people died due to the firebombing in those early days of February. Controversial as it was, it was effective at doing what it was designed to do, which was win the war.

I throw this out there as just an "idea", although I do not know nor could I determine if it is a legitimate approach or not, as I just haven't thought about it long enough to do so.

Thanks for posing the question.
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remorseless1 wrote:
Note that this does not include domestic terrorists. An American example would be Timothy Fucking McVey (may he roast in the deepest pits of Hell).


That's Timothy Fucking McVeigh.

Never trusted that side of the family and their damn silent consonants. Weirdos.
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Terwox wrote:
Defeat? As in, eliminate it? Note that I don't espouse this, but...

1) Stop all incoming travel from foreign countries.
2) Deport (or execute) all people from foreign countries in your country.


Wouldn't work. For several reasons (home grown radicals, porous borders, impossibility of implementing).

Of course wouldn't work applies to any attempt to eliminate. Reduce is the best game in town.
 
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chrisnd wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I do not have any towering intellect. What I do have, though, is a bit of knowledge about Dresden in 1945.

Granted, the US and British "solution" to the German problem in the early months of 1945 were controversial; however, it cannot be argued that it wasn't effective at contributing to the ultimate surrender of the Third Reich just a few months later.

I understand you, personally, do not think firebombing millions of innocent people is a viable alternative. Approximately 25,000 people died due to the firebombing in those early days of February. Controversial as it was, it was effective at doing what it was designed to do, which was win the war.

I throw this out there as just an "idea", although I do not know nor could I determine if it is a legitimate approach or not, as I just haven't thought about it long enough to do so.

Thanks for posing the question.


Firebombing Dresden did nothing to win the war. It was already won. Fire bombing earlier in Germany only had a marginal effect, because it wasn't repeated everywhere.
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Re: Here's your chance: How to defeat modern Arab/Islamic terrorism
remorseless1 wrote:
All right all you armchair generals and couch-bound marshals, here's your shot. Tell us just how to defeat terrorism. Detail is encouraged. Here's the parameters:

1. Terrorism will be defined as that which emanates from countries in the Mideast, Southeast Asia, and north/central Africa. You can label it Islamic, Arabic, Christian, Wack-a-doodle. Whatever.

2. Terrorists will be defined as those part of an organization or having been encouraged (you can call it radicalized if you want) by web sites or material from said organizations.

Note that this does not include domestic terrorists. An American example would be Timothy Fucking McVey (may he roast in the deepest pits of Hell).

And don't ask me about my solution. I've put it into numerous posts, and it slips out of your consciousness because it (A) does not include firebombing millions of innocent people, and (B) does not propose to throw open our borders, institute Sha'aria law, and require every world citizen to become a transgendered Muslim.

So, come on, dazzle us with your brilliance. leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


1) Your definition is very poor. Terrorism can and does emanate from any part of the globe. That is because terrorism is a methodology rather than an ideology. It is more properly the use of violence or threat of violence against indiscriminate targets to achieve political ends.

2) Terrorists don't necessarily arise from within organizations nor do they require support or indoctrination from any particular organization. In fact, people can self radicalize or be influenced by organizations that don't even exist, not to mention organization that promote ideologies without "intentionally" calling for violence. Terrorists can certainly operate without material support as well. You can likely still find copies of the "Anarchists Cookbook" from the early 70's still floating around which is sort of like a field guide for the discontented to cause damage with fairly rudimentary materials.

How do you stop terrorism? How do you stop murder, or drug abuse, or theft or any other unpleasant idea or method? You build a society which makes such actions less acceptable and less attractive. When people are stake holders in a society that actually works, they are less inclined to radical counterculture ideas. Government transparency and common causes help.

However, there will always be people who are discontent regardless, or are misled or have mental irregularities or who simply want to wield power. Therefore you can only mitigate against terrorism.

The Middle East is a lethal soup of discontent and people who feel they have nothing left to lose. They've dealt with outright colonialism as well as more subtle forms of political intervention and manipulation. Iran had a Western backed political leader foisted upon them who turned out to be an oppressive tyrant. The Saudi people have a royal dynasty propped up by Western support including arms sales who routinely suppress dissent with torture and imprisonment. There are many more such examples but the core problem is the worlds appetite for oil and a willingness to step on anyone who impedes it's stable flow. There are millions of individuals and families who have significant reasons to want to change their world and violence seems the only, if not easiest answer.

If what you really want is to be protected from terrorism, the answer is to give them little or no reason to engage in the practice. Wean the West from foreign oil. Stop intervening in their politics or supporting tyrants and dictators. In the short run this will lead to inevitable human tragedy as those states seek to stabilize and will no doubt spawn some vicious tyrannical regimes along the way. However, they would have little reason to focus on us. Of course failed states will always be a threat to their neighbors (of which our Israeli allies would be one) and, like North Korea, would seek to pursue neighboring resources thus begging for containment.

We are unlikely to disengage in this fashion so the answer is to remain constructively engaged wherever and whenever possible, vying for improvement of local conditions and remaining vigilant against individuals or groups who choose a violent path for dissent. Recognize as many stakeholders as possible (not only to give them a voice at the table but to maintain points of contact) and recognize the world is not a chessboard for us to order.


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Make oil obsolete. Let the borders of the Middle East and North Africa work themselves out.

They will be so busy fighting for clean water no one will even think about us for 100 years
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Dearlove wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I do not have any towering intellect. What I do have, though, is a bit of knowledge about Dresden in 1945.

Granted, the US and British "solution" to the German problem in the early months of 1945 were controversial; however, it cannot be argued that it wasn't effective at contributing to the ultimate surrender of the Third Reich just a few months later.

I understand you, personally, do not think firebombing millions of innocent people is a viable alternative. Approximately 25,000 people died due to the firebombing in those early days of February. Controversial as it was, it was effective at doing what it was designed to do, which was win the war.

I throw this out there as just an "idea", although I do not know nor could I determine if it is a legitimate approach or not, as I just haven't thought about it long enough to do so.

Thanks for posing the question.


Firebombing Dresden did nothing to win the war. It was already won. Fire bombing earlier in Germany only had a marginal effect, because it wasn't repeated everywhere.


And of course it would have a negative effect if tried today against terrorism. It would just help provide fuel for the terrorists to radicalise more and more youth.
 
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My two point plan:

1. Do not assist / topple governments, or send armed forces / advisors / military aid to those areas. Let them reach some kind of equilibrium on their own after decades of pointless killing.

2. To improve assimilation / integration, remove all government funding for private / charter schools.
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chrisnd wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I do not have any towering intellect. What I do have, though, is a bit of knowledge about Dresden in 1945.

Granted, the US and British "solution" to the German problem in the early months of 1945 were controversial; however, it cannot be argued that it wasn't effective at contributing to the ultimate surrender of the Third Reich just a few months later.

I understand you, personally, do not think firebombing millions of innocent people is a viable alternative. Approximately 25,000 people died due to the firebombing in those early days of February. Controversial as it was, it was effective at doing what it was designed to do, which was win the war.

I throw this out there as just an "idea", although I do not know nor could I determine if it is a legitimate approach or not, as I just haven't thought about it long enough to do so.

Thanks for posing the question.


This is not viable. Germany was a static population without accees to the means of coordinating over distance we now have available (cell phones, easy air travel, world banking, etc)

Modern day terrorism just scatters when you hit it with a hammer and regroups in the shadows.
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remorseless1 wrote:
So, come on, dazzle us with your brilliance. leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I remove all US troops from the world and return them to our US borders. I completely close the border and have a much stricter immigration plan only taking the best of each nation. Islamic nations are off the list of eligible to immigrate.

I turn over world police duty to Europe. We now have a time of unparalleled growth and prosperity, secretly building anti- nuke technology as well as EMP tech or perhaps a robotic army will be ready.

I then wait 50 years or less until Europe becomes an Islamic Caliphate and wait for them to declare war.

We purchase baja California from Mexico and move all holy hebrew monuments to Baja and essentially move Isreal to Baja. Mexico becomes a better place as more Jew move in next door. With no jews to blame, the middle east falls back into chaos as they turn on each other.

This is where the final phase of my plan kicks in. We unleash our EMP secretly all over the world, shut down all electronic communications and set the rest of the world back a hundred years.

MERICA !





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chrisnd wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
Leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I do not have any towering intellect. What I do have, though, is a bit of knowledge about Dresden in 1945.

Granted, the US and British "solution" to the German problem in the early months of 1945 were controversial; however, it cannot be argued that it wasn't effective at contributing to the ultimate surrender of the Third Reich just a few months later.

I understand you, personally, do not think firebombing millions of innocent people is a viable alternative. Approximately 25,000 people died due to the firebombing in those early days of February. Controversial as it was, it was effective at doing what it was designed to do, which was win the war.

I throw this out there as just an "idea", although I do not know nor could I determine if it is a legitimate approach or not, as I just haven't thought about it long enough to do so.

Thanks for posing the question.


Have you read Slaughterhouse Five? If you haven't, give it a shot -- it's partially about Dresden.
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Dearlove wrote:
Terwox wrote:
Defeat? As in, eliminate it? Note that I don't espouse this, but...

1) Stop all incoming travel from foreign countries.
2) Deport (or execute) all people from foreign countries in your country.


Wouldn't work. For several reasons (home grown radicals, porous borders, impossibility of implementing).

Of course wouldn't work applies to any attempt to eliminate. Reduce is the best game in town.


It is possible to stop having porous borders, but the isolationism involved would be well past reductio ab absurdum.

It is possible to stop home grown radicals, but the level of government control required for that may as well be called terrorism directly.
 
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Wealth redistribution.
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Carbon credits.
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How to defeat them? Ignore them.

1. Do not make their puny little attacks into more than they are. If they kill someone with a knife in Minnesota, arrest them for murder, try them for murder, convict them for murder, and depending on the state either put them away for a couple of years for murder*, away for a few decades for murder, or after wasting 22 years on appeals fry them for murder. Never once utter the word terrorist during the entire process and certainly do not lend any credence to their cause, their manifesto or to anything else they may have to say.
2. Do not pass stupid laws that remind terrorists each and every day how important they are. So important that they are able to delay millions of people a day in airports, so important that bottled water is too dangerous to carry aboard planes, so dangerous that grandmas with colostomy bags need to be pulled out of line to be "randomly" checked. So important that despite all the "random" checking of 90 year old incontinent white women, every person of Arab decent and anyone who even looks a bit Arab can give you a dozen stories of also being "randomly" pulled out of line every single time they travel. And if you hate "the fucking AY-Rabs" and think they should "pack their sand-nigger asses back to Kazakhstan or where ever they come from" then at least have a heart for your fellow ubermensch who don't need to be delayed by entire days per year just to travel from Duluth to Peoria.
2. Do not send terrorists to special places like Guantanamo where American and international laws seem to take a back seat to glorifying terrorism as something worse than any other type of warfare. These guys are fighting a war, try them in courts-martial, don't make up entire new categories of crimes that have already been done to death in both civilian law (see point #1) and military law (see a book or two about definitions of war crimes). And if you really need to go war-criminal on their asses, instead of waterboarding them, just instruct your military to carry out battle field executions. Our media is too wussified to ask too many questions and it is a fuck of a lot cleaner and less prone to questioning than torture is. Who is to say whether Abu Al-Peeso'shitti caught that bullet before or after he surrendered? I frankly could not give a shit (see my introductory statement about ignoring them - they want to die for their religion? I'm all for it, no questions asked. May Allah - peace be upon his name - and the 70 virgins welcome you into paradise).
3. Scrap the color-coded terror alert bullshit and tell people to grow up and act like adults. The chance of you or me getting killed by a terrorist is practically nil. Don't sweat it, you are not going to die from terrorism. And if you do pull the short end of the stick and some wacko decides to cash in his chit in your vicinity, do what the guard at Canada's parliament did - help him meet his maker if you can. It is the least any good Christian, or Buddhist, or Hindu, or Atheist or even any Muslim who is not among the 1% of whackjobs, can do.
4. Instead of analyzing everybody's cellphone metadata, try responding to tips a bit quicker. For example if someone calls the FBI and says, "hey, some suspicious dudes are trying to learn how to turn passenger planes into do-it-yourself-missiles", maybe send an agent or two around to ask a few questions.
5. Understand that they have an agenda and that as heinous as that agenda is to you or me, it makes sense to them. Don't use this understanding to make them into some sort of troubled youngsters, but instead try to understand what makes them tick, then do your best not to wind up their clocks.
6. If you are not Muslim, stop being a douche and blaming all Muslims. If you are a Muslim, and you hear your fellow Muslim say something in support of the terrorists, point out to that fellow Muslim that they are being a douche and that they are making life tough for all other Muslims because there are plenty of douches out there ready to blame all Muslims for the crimes of the terrorists

* If in Canada determine whether three-for-one rules on time served (in pre-trial custody) means they get to walk out after the sentencing session as a free man/woman.
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jeremycobert wrote:
remorseless1 wrote:
So, come on, dazzle us with your brilliance. leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.


I remove all US troops from the world and return them to our US borders. I completely close the border and have a much stricter immigration plan only taking the best of each nation. Islamic nations are off the list of eligible to immigrate.

I turn over world police duty to Europe. We now have a time of unparalleled growth and prosperity, secretly building anti- nuke technology as well as EMP tech or perhaps a robotic army will be ready.

I then wait 50 years or less until Europe becomes an Islamic Caliphate and wait for them to declare war.

We purchase baja California from Mexico and move all holy hebrew monuments to Baja and essentially move Isreal to Baja. Mexico becomes a better place as more Jew move in next door. With no jews to blame, the middle east falls back into chaos as they turn on each other.

This is where the final phase of my plan kicks in. We unleash our EMP secretly all over the world, shut down all electronic communications and set the rest of the world back a hundred years.

MERICA !







How do you suggest we maintain open and navigable waterways to our merchant marine without extra national ports?
 
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Balance security with privacy needs and allow NSA to do what they've done; keep one eye open and one eye closed.

Policy 1, 2, or 3?
http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2015/05/section-215...
 
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Altair IV wrote:
Make oil obsolete. Let the borders of the Middle East and North Africa work themselves out.

They will be so busy fighting for clean water no one will even think about us for 100 years

It can't be totally cured, but taking oil money out of the equation will make them so poor they won't be a significant threat. The region has nothing else but the Suez Canal, and that's mostly a European concern; plus, Egypt depends on the canal and tourism, so they want peace.

Unfortunately, we (the US) have killed and displaced enough people in Iraq to lead to terrorism at some level for a century, at least. (The Irish-English conflict lasted about 1000 years, not without help from both sides, to be sure.) Devaluing oil, by replacing it with renewable power and synthetics, is a major step toward dampening the terrorism.

We can dump oil in five to ten years if we get off our asses. It totally pays for itself. Though it will be something of an economic disruption, it's coming inevitably. If we make it happen instead of stumbling into it, we can handle the disruption. If not, it happens in five to twenty years anyway, haphazardly.

How someone can be radicalized over the Internet I don't understand, so no opinion.

Dresden is not parallel. We pretty much brought Iraq down to a post-WWII German or even Japanese level; but Germany and Japan had a long history of unified, mono-cultural, Western-valued government. We pretty much have two options:

• Do what we're doing: punitive counter-strikes and taking out leadership; giving humanitarian aid. Be fairly quiet about the strikes, but make noise about the humanitarian aid. Minimize both: don't make them dependent on US aid.

• Go full boat counter-insurgency, like Petraeus did, but expect to be there for a couple decades, at least. Extremely expensive. Either convert Iraq to a modern secular culture or partition the country. (Expect opposition from just about everyone in the region, so getting rid of oil money is very important along this path, too.) See Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife: Counterinsurgency Lessons from Malaya and Vietnam. I don't really think this is a viable path; I think the neocons would be the only ones to support it.

I think it was Mac who posted some very interesting videos of Arabic intellectuals commenting on how much the Persian Gulf countries only have oil. No oil, and all other commondities they produce are replaceable, so they need good relations to make sales; pretty much, their relations are poor outside their region. Money will eventually win over ideology.
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remorseless1 wrote:
All right all you armchair generals and couch-bound marshals, here's your shot. Tell us just how to defeat terrorism. Detail is encouraged. Here's the parameters:

1. Terrorism will be defined as that which emanates from countries in the Mideast, Southeast Asia, and north/central Africa. You can label it Islamic, Arabic, Christian, Wack-a-doodle. Whatever.

2. Terrorists will be defined as those part of an organization or having been encouraged (you can call it radicalized if you want) by web sites or material from said organizations.

Note that this does not include domestic terrorists. An American example would be Timothy Fucking McVey (may he roast in the deepest pits of Hell).

And don't ask me about my solution. I've put it into numerous posts, and it slips out of your consciousness because it (A) does not include firebombing millions of innocent people, and (B) does not propose to throw open our borders, institute Sha'aria law, and require every world citizen to become a transgendered Muslim.

So, come on, dazzle us with your brilliance. leave us gasping at the breath and width of your towering intellect.
You cannot, all you can do is undermine it enough for it to not be a major threat (as we have done in Ireland).

First, stop targeting Muslims, and make it clear we are only going after terrorist who commit terrorist acts.

Second, Stop bombing the middle east and remove the other reasons you are hated there.

Third, Encourage moderate Islam, but (for example) not blocking the building of cultural center.
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You have to go at the core. No ammount of fighting or bombing will do that.

1. Take away the theological / intellectual underpinnings of terrorism. The leadership and many active terrorists are highly educated people. They are swayed by the arguments of wahabists / salafist theology. The west needs to divest itself from Saudi Arabia and other nations who export their Wahabi faith through generous distribution of oil money. They promote and fund Mosques, Muslim school, provide Imam's etc etc, and have been doing so for a long time. By doing this they exported the radical Wahabi intepretation of Islam throughout the world. This needs to stop. Which is nigh impossible to do while remaining friends with the reigning SA royalty. And I'm ok with that.

EDIT1: just remembered of the tricky but essential 1a: promote a more, ahem, relaxed interpretation of Islam. This is tricky because it is not actually possible to do so directly and overtly AND have positive results.

2. Work to alleviate the other pillar underpinning the radical call to action: the enduring poverty and hopelesness of many in the (non oil producing) Middle Aast and North Africa. That probably means not supporting dictators even if that leads to a short term result of Muslim parties in power. Being very supportive of regimes who promote firstly rule of law and secondly democratization. Opening markets to other products then oil. Promoting economic devlopment at large. Most importantly, letting the people and leaders in the middle east set their own pace.

3. Reduce dependecy on oil, which gives the west considerably more freedom when dealing with the midle east to achieve the above to goals.
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Terrorism is just bullying on a bigger scale.

So you defeat it by just ignoring it, like you would a bully. These types quit if you're not giving them any traction.

Then loose the parts of foreign policy that push the poor and down trodden folk towards fundamentalists..

Mind you, you'll need to have a few bad blokes on the pay roll just to check they are not planing something really nasty in the interim.
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Rulesjd wrote:
How do you suggest we maintain open and navigable waterways to our merchant marine without extra national ports?


Two words: volume.
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
Rulesjd wrote:
How do you suggest we maintain open and navigable waterways to our merchant marine without extra national ports?


Two words: volume.
You do understand that bigger ships need bigger ports?
 
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