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Steven Woodcock
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/21/un-fears-thir...
 
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J
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Is that a dick joke?
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Frank F
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Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.
 
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flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?


No more money lending next year.
 
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Mac Mcleod
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I don't know. seems like they could create demand by stopping literally almost all the wealth from piling up with 1% of the population.

And I do mean literally.

Interesting and scary article. We know there will be another financial panic. But will it be next year or after our lifetimes?
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Boaty McBoatface
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maxo-texas wrote:
I don't know. seems like they could create demand by stopping literally almost all the wealth from piling up with 1% of the population.

And I do mean literally.

Interesting and scary article. We know there will be another financial panic. But will it be next year or after our lifetimes?
But then who would innovate and create jobs, like they are now?
 
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Oliver Dienz
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flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?

Most savings would be wiped out.

Dolphinandrew wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?


No more money lending next year.

Unlikely. The effects would be similar to resetting the currency after a hyperinflation. Banks do not need deposits to lend, just willing borrowers.

 
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odie73 wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?

Most savings would be wiped out.

Dolphinandrew wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?


No more money lending next year.

Unlikely. The effects would be similar to resetting the currency after a hyperinflation. Banks do not need deposits to lend, just willing borrowers.




The point would not be whether the banks could lend, but why would they want to? If the debt is just going to be forgiven, there's no reason to lend the money.

Though I suppose I am making some assumptions on how exactly the debt will be forgiven.
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Oliver Dienz
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
odie73 wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?

Most savings would be wiped out.

Dolphinandrew wrote:
flamespeak wrote:
I wonder what the outcome would be if everyone agreed to forgive all debt at the same time?


No more money lending next year.

Unlikely. The effects would be similar to resetting the currency after a hyperinflation. Banks do not need deposits to lend, just willing borrowers.




The point would not be whether the banks could lend, but why would they want to? If the debt is just going to be forgiven, there's no reason to lend the money.

One person's debt is another person's asset. When the "debts" (aka a bank's assets) are being cancelled the deposits (the bank's liabilities/"debts") will also need to go. That will amount to a balance sheet contraction. However, banks will still want to generate income from the interest they earn on new loans. The interest generates a steady income for the bank and its employees/owners.

As said, the overall effects of a general debt jubilee will be very similar to a currency reform after a period of hyperinflation. Has happened in quite a few countries e. g. Germany 1923 with the introduction of the "Rentenmark". There were still banks and bank lending afterwards.

In principle, when really all debts would be forgiven even cash would need to be reintroduced as that is a liability (debt) of the central bank (with the exception of coins).

If it makes sense to just continue "business as usual" after such an event is, of course, an entirely different matter. Maybe then people will finally realize that by saving money a society does not prepare for the future.
 
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odie73 wrote:
One person's debt is another person's asset. When the "debts" (aka a bank's assets) are being cancelled the deposits (the bank's liabilities/"debts") will also need to go. That will amount to a balance sheet contraction. However, banks will still want to generate income from the interest they earn on new loans. The interest generates a steady income for the bank and its employees/owners.


I think this rather depends on exactly how the debt is forgiven. If it is forgiven in a way so that there is no particular reason to think it won't happen again and again, then it will look like it won't be generating a steady income for the bank. Particularly if the debt is simply written off and the bank looses a lot of money.
 
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Steven Woodcock
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LightRider wrote:
Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.


Can you give me a million please then?



Ferret
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Oliver Dienz
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Dolphinandrew wrote:
odie73 wrote:
One person's debt is another person's asset. When the "debts" (aka a bank's assets) are being cancelled the deposits (the bank's liabilities/"debts") will also need to go. That will amount to a balance sheet contraction. However, banks will still want to generate income from the interest they earn on new loans. The interest generates a steady income for the bank and its employees/owners.


I think this rather depends on exactly how the debt is forgiven. If it is forgiven in a way so that there is no particular reason to think it won't happen again and again, then it will look like it won't be generating a steady income for the bank. Particularly if the debt is simply written off and the bank looses a lot of money.

Banks would lose the interest income on their preexisting assets but what else will they do when they are not going to make new loans to generate future income? Farmers do not stop farming because of a drought, even if there is the possibility of another one. As long as there is a demand for money there will be banks and lending. If no privately owned banks are going to exist anymore the state will step in. And we may then realize that a lot of the problems we have with private banks will just disappear. (Not saying that not other problems may crop up which may need tight control by the electorate.)

 
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Ferretman wrote:
LightRider wrote:
Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.


Can you give me a million please then?
A million articles on the resource based economy? Be carefull what you wish for...
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Chris
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It's hard to say. I thought everything with the global markets would have caused everything to melt down by now but here we are. Is this just another doom and gloom article? We will see.

If we just wiped out all debt, then in the long run it would probably be good but in the short term, wow.

First off, the rich people who own everything would be out. So they will never agree. All of that debt is owned by someone so they will be out all of that money. Banks will collapse so only the owners of the central banks might survive - I assume since they issue the currency anyway.

There would be all kinds of political instability. Riots, possibly revolutions and civil wars - maybe even of "stable" Western countries. Things would "lock up" for a while. You might not get paid, currency would probably become worthless, probably lose your job. Savings and retirement would vanish.

So yea, if you're willing to hit the big old reset button on the whole fucking show, we could just wipe out all debt. better have some guns, some gold and plenty of food stockpiled though. Some prepper somewhere just got a big boner from whoever suggested that.
 
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Wendell
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Though I'm not an apologist for Wall Street, etc, just one observation...

Every debt is an asset for somebody else.
 
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savings would be lost not really you could protect the savings and Still right of the debts.

90% of the money banks lend is imaginary - for every 10% they take in savings they loan $10 and create a further imaginary $90 to loan out.
 
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Oliver Dienz
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growlley wrote:
savings would be lost not really you could protect the savings and Still right of the debts.

A monetary saving is simply an IOU. If you cancel the debts, the IOUs would also become worthless. Only non-financial assets will retain its "value" (in whatever unit you want to express that). The owners of real assets (land, buildings, companies etc.) will preserve their wealth when debts are cancelled.

Quote:
90% of the money banks lend is imaginary - for every 10% they take in savings they loan $10 and create a further imaginary $90 to loan out.

The money multiplier as shown in textbooks is simply wrong. Banks create deposits when they make loans, regardless of having "savings" before or not. http://www.pieria.co.uk/articles/the_money_multiplier_is_dea...
 
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G Rowls
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it's imaginary numbers in a computer , if we can chose to create more imginary debt to future generations to prop up the money lending bankers , we could decide to save peoples savings and pensions etc.
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Steven Woodcock
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Venga2 wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
LightRider wrote:
Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.


Can you give me a million please then?
A million articles on the resource based economy? Be carefull what you wish for...


Oh great Odin....*shudder*....



Ferret
 
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Chris
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growlley wrote:
it's imaginary numbers in a computer , if we can chose to create more imginary debt to future generations to prop up the money lending bankers , we could decide to save peoples savings and pensions etc.


But the whole world revolves around these imaginary numbers. The whole system works because we all agree to believe in these imaginary numbers. If we stopped we need a new system and we all need to agree on it. We can switch to a gold standard, but why is gold valuable? Because some people decide they want that metal which is not all that pretty or useful. We can go back to barter but that is a pain in the ass. I have to start carrying chickens around with me to trade. Chickens poop a lot and peck you. Fuck that. Or we can try this resource based economy. We have asked Frank tons of times for more information that that but all we get is 1000+ pages of propaganda videos with no actual plan.

It's kind of like playing a board game. It's all made up but it's fun because we all agree that if I roll dice I get to collect some wool, grain, brick, stone or wood. I could just say fuck it and grab all the cards and say I won, but I really didn't.

Except the global economy all fits together. We have to have some method to facilitate trade or we all become self sufficient and live on a farm growing our own food and shit.

Try this:
http://www.theatlantic.com/video/index/278980/what-is-money/

Now if this whole system burns down, maybe you can invent something better.
 
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Moshe Callen
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You should read Spaiens, galad2003. It posits that the chief advantage homo sapiens had was the ability to use collective imagination to organize etc.
 
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G Rowls
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Not sure if you got my point - if the rules are imaginary and they are and you can change \ bend them to bail out the bankers you change \bend them to save whichever bits of the system you want to keep and reset the rest of them. They have already done this in the banking system and wall street before now.


Much as it would be enteraining to see the world burn too many ordinary people would be hurt to let it all burn - 1%ers\corporate rent seekers? well that is what lamposts and piano wire were invented for.

you have got to decide if the system benefit the people or the people are for the benefit of the system and I'm not talking talking about communism either just the overarching ethos of the system.
 
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Frank F
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Ferretman wrote:
LightRider wrote:
Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.


Can you give me a million please then?



Ferret


If I were a central banker and you were a personal friend of mine, yes I could. But we aren't the privileged ones in this system.

By contrast, no one could arbitrarily create a thousand bitcoin to give you at whim.
 
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Steven Woodcock
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LightRider wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
LightRider wrote:
Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.


Can you give me a million please then?



Ferret


If I were a central banker and you were a personal friend of mine, yes I could. But we aren't the privileged ones in this system.

By contrast, no one could arbitrarily create a thousand bitcoin to give you at whim.


So how did the first Bitcoin(s) get created anyway?



Ferret
 
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Frank F
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Ferretman wrote:
LightRider wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
LightRider wrote:
Fortunately, debt, like money is imaginary.


Can you give me a million please then?



Ferret


If I were a central banker and you were a personal friend of mine, yes I could. But we aren't the privileged ones in this system.

By contrast, no one could arbitrarily create a thousand bitcoin to give you at whim.


So how did the first Bitcoin(s) get created anyway?



Ferret


The genesis block was created by the system's creator, but its associated coins are not spendable. Every subsequent block has been mined.
 
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