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Terra Mystica» Forums » Variants

Subject: Loon Lake Test for Final Tiles Need Volunteers rss

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James Wolfpacker
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I am proposing a 4p and a 5p test for Loon Lakes v1.3 to see how the final tiles affect play on the map. This is a set of 5 simultaneous games to play. All setup and player order will be the same for each game except the only difference is the final tile will be different and no final tile. You will be free to choose any faction you want for each game though you will have the same seat for each game.

Extra Town Tiles and VTO will be included.

I have already predetermined a Round and BON setup.

R1: Score7: SA/SH>>5 / 2Air --> 1W
R2: Score8: TP>>3 / 4Air -> 1Spade
R3: Score6: TP>>3 / 4Water --> 1Spade
R4: Score3: D>>2 / 4Water --> 1P
R5: Score2: TW >>5 / 4Earth --> 1Spade
R6: Score9: TE>>4

BONs: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,9 (5p)

I'm open to suggestions of which BON to remove for the 4p game. I'm also debating on whether to swap out BON4 with perhaps BON8 or BON10 since shipping is extremely important in LoonLakes, and the presence of BON4 could possibly unbalance the test.

Game 1: No final tile
Game 2: Distance
Game 3: Clusters
Game 4: SH_SA
Game 5: Edge

I feel that either Fire and Ice factions have to either be allowed for both 4p and 5p or disallowed for both 4p and 5p. I'd prefer allowing Fire and Ice since it makes 5p easier to play due to the color sandwiching and the fact that final tiles are being used.

Player Requirements: played at least 3 games on Loon Lakes v1.3 and rating of 1200+ or played in TmTour D4 or higher at least once since Season 10.

The chess clock will be set fairly tight to get the games over with quickly. I am thinking of either:
1 day per move
2 days + 1 day/rd + 8 hr grace (my preferred clock).
I can make it longer since the TM Tour is starting soon so these games can be low priority.

You can volunteer for either the 4p games or the 5p games. Remember this is for 5 games to be played so I doubt anyone wants to volunteer for both 4p and 5p which is 10 games.

I can volunteer for the 5p games.
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Loon
Singapore
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I'm a bit concerned about how the round bonuses you picked may affect the factions chosen, and thus the test results. Round 1 SASH, for example, favors a lot of the same factions that edge scoring does. Round 5 town bonus discourages clusters. (And this isn't a problem with selection; this would be true for any set of bonuses.)

What information are you trying to get, exactly? Not that I'm discouraging a bunch of Lakes games from getting played, I'm just not sure this test will tell you anything you're hoping it will.
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James Wolfpacker
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Do you have any other ideas for different round bonus selection?
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Also, keep in mind that these games are unrated and you won't have to play them too seriously like league games, but don't play horribly either!
 
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Space Trucker
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I guess Loon simply wanted to point out that 5 games per setup is by no means enough do make any serious statistics at all and that a fixed setup of round bonuses (however it may look) will influence the results more strongly than final scoring tiles.
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James Wolfpacker
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I am quite aware that 1 set of 5 games is not statistically significant. However, there is a difference between stats and experiments purposefully designed to find results with group discussion. I probably should have made the discussion part more clear.

The idea is more to play the games like a co-op in order to tease out if there are any real issues. The Round and BON setup is all noise that must be eliminated from the equation so it's best to find a setup where several factions can work. In this case I was more interested in making a SH heavy group of factions because that can also help to slow down the land rush some. Another type of setup could focus more on early land rush.

I'm not sure if anyone has done any type of meaningful experiment like this yet.
 
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Loon
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
The idea is more to play the games like a co-op in order to tease out if there are any real issues.

Can you clarify what this means?

Is your goal to discover if one leads to higher scores than others? (If so, is this a problem?)
Is your goal to discover OP strategies that imbalance one of the final scoring options toward certain factions/hexes/whatever? (If so, perhaps it'd be better to pick one final scoring option and stick to vary other details.)

I'm still not clear what it is that you're looking to find. I get that you're trying to eliminate other random factors, I just don't understand why.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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I'm just looking around and wanting to make a comparison. OP strategies would be a main concern, of course. You never know what kind of interesting stuff could just pop up when you test it. Where there is smoke, there's fire, and I'm looking to see if there's any smoke.

It might be possible that on Loon Lakes, final tiles could lead to more same double placement than on the other two maps. I haven't made stats on it, but the feeling to me is that on Fire & Ice map, the final and network scoring is broken up enough between really good 4 or 5 players that P1 is not always getting +36, P2 getting +24, P3 getting +12 and P4 and P5 gets 0. I'll have to look at the F&I 4p Test league games where mikaeljt won 4 for 4 with all Engineers though to check out the final + network scoring on that.

Experiments that worked as I can tell:

4p shuffle formats - works wonderfully in all pick formats so far (random factions, pre-setup picked, post-setup picked, still need to test free pick)

Choosing Worst Factions for Other players - Horrible, the 4th player will be at such a disadvantage that the only way to balance it is to make it a 4p shuffle.

Fire and Ice Leagues - 5p worked well in league size with 11p, but worked even better with league size of 6p. 4p also seemed to work well too, but I think better results from league play were from 5p games with league size of 6p.

Some other experiments that I haven't tried yet, but want to:

Trading Resources - it is limited to coins, workers, priests, and power tokens in the 3 bowls, if more leeway is given then I'd like to try trading FAVs and Cult steps too)

Reign - 3 players control 1 faction in a 4p game. Setup and rounds are divided among the players and the only communication is through the Planning Box. Sort of like the telephone game.

 
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