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Mansions of Madness: Second Edition» Forums » General

Subject: Fire useless? rss

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Zed Lovecraft
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So far we played the game 6 times and always had a good time. The only feature we really dislike is how fire spreads.
During most of our games we had fire on the board, sometimes even two separate ones. It seems to be unofficial consensus that you only place 1 new fire marker even if there are two separate fires on the board. And it´s your choice where you want to put it.

Instead of being a suspenseful timer/game mechanic fire never was a danger at all, because every new round we just put one maker as far away from our investigators as possible. During later turns we didn´t even add markers anymore because it wouldn´t have made any difference if they were there or not. Due to that the extinguish fire action also felt quite useless.

How does everybody feel about this? Or did we do something terrible wrong?

@FFG: Please make the fire feature more dangerous & challenging for gameplay purposes
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John Henry
United Kingdom
Wellington
West Midlands
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If you want the fire to be more dangerous and challenging why not place it in the space closest to your investigators?
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Ray PG
Netherlands
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I agree with the OP, fire is extremely gamey and can be manipulated far too easily. It's almost like they forgot to include the "fire spreads towards the closest investigator" line in the app. As it stands currently it doesn't add anything to the game.
 
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randall fischer

Warren
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or do the unthinkable and randomize where it goes? A simple die roll would fix gaming the fire.
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Zed Lovecraft
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I just hope that FFG comes up with something official to make it worthwhile. I can´t understand that the geniuses behind this game and app didn´t find a better way. Best for me would be if the app says where the fire spreads.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
just like it does for the mob in Escape from Innsmouth
 
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Joseph Bromley
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I love using it strategically to crisp up Deep Ones and Cultists before they get to your investigators... burn up a couple of their hit points before they reach you.
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John Henry
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Ashes001 wrote:
I just hope that FFG comes up with something official to make it worthwhile. I can´t understand that the geniuses behind this game and app didn´t found a better way. Best for me would be if the app says where the fire spreads.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
just like it´s doing for the mob in Escape from Innsmouth


The app doesn't know where the fire starts in many instances (dropping a light source, player starting a fire), unlike your other example where it knows where the thing starts and it just moves on a pre-set course.

Even if the app did know where the fire started, it would not know where your investigators are, so it would spread the fire randomly, which half the time would put it far away from the investigators by chance.

Controlling the fire spreading to specific spaces in the app increases the complexity of the app, increasing the chance of bugs and errors, the development cost to solve those is unlikely to be justified for a minor rules component.

If you want to make the fire harder you can, if you want to make it easier you can. Complaining that something is too easy because you chose to make it easy just doesn't make much sense to me.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I think one of the insanity win conditions (Pyromania) encourages spreading fire to 6 rooms, the pyromaniac player can choose to spread fire to extra rooms with the spread fire rule, if the app spread fire randomly it would make this win condition more difficult. Plus this win condition is why you shouldn't really let a fire spread massively.
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Zed Lovecraft
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Quote:
The app doesn't know where the fire starts in many instances (dropping a light source, player starting a fire), unlike your other example where it knows where the thing starts and it just moves on a pre-set course.


True, but even if I once have to tell the app where I started a fire I would much prefer this one more click if fire becomes more meaningful through it.

Quote:
Even if the app did know where the fire started, it would not know where your investigators are, so it would spread the fire randomly, which half the time would put it far away from the investigators by chance.


I´m not sure the app doesn't "know" where investigators are, because many mythos events like ("...an investigator in the lobby....") nearly always triggered in our sessions. We guessed that due to a search or explore action done by an investigator during the investigator phase before in this specific room the app tried to "guess as close as possible" where investigators are.

Quote:
Controlling the fire spreading to specific spaces in the app increases the complexity of the app, increasing the chance of bugs and errors, the development cost to solve those is unlikely to be justified for a minor rules component.


Hhm, I work in the VG industry (not programing though) and if we would come up with such an explanation why we didn´t made a game feature as perfect as the rest of the game....not good

Quote:
If you want to make the fire harder you can, if you want to make it easier you can. Complaining that something is too easy because you chose to make it easy just doesn't make much sense to me.


I really didn´t want to complain. I love the game and I feel the difficulty is absolutely correct in both directions. Without any house rules fire just feels lame (compared to the high gameplay standards of the rest of the game!

 
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soak man
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I think the fire spreads fine. I played originally thinking that fire spread to each adjacent space... All of Innsmouth was ablaze and we had too few actions to do anything OTHER than put out fires.

I actually like it this way as you aren't sure if the scenario will ever take you back to a previous place. It is important that the fire is both helper and hinderance. Whereas it eats extra actions from the players to put it out, it usually isn't much of a threat, but the players can strategically use it to their advantage to deal with hordes of monsters.

In one of my more recent games, the Dunwich Horror was actually done in by fire. Very thematic.
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Zed Lovecraft
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matineeidyll129 wrote:
I love using it strategically to crisp up Deep Ones and Cultists before they get to your investigators... burn up a couple of their hit points before they reach you.


That´s what we did, too. But it felt not very atmospheric ("are these cultists really that stupid to walk through fire all the time?")
 
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soak man
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Ashes001 wrote:
matineeidyll129 wrote:
I love using it strategically to crisp up Deep Ones and Cultists before they get to your investigators... burn up a couple of their hit points before they reach you.


That´s what we did, too. But it felt not very atmospheric ("are these cultists really that stupid to walk through fire all the time?")


Most of them are insane, so that strikes me as appropriate.
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Zed Lovecraft
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Quote:
Most of them are insane, so that strikes me as appropriate.


Definitely an explanation for their behavior
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Elk Ridge
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The "official" consensus is that you only place one new fire marker per turn. And I think it plays just fine. At first, seems like no big deal, but it can quite rapidly get out of hand and overwhelm everything on the board. It also adds an interesting dynamic to the game: waste actions putting out fires when you already don't have enough actions to beat the game and fight the monsters?

-shnar
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Fire feels more like a map constrictor and an action sink. We've definitely had games where fire got completely out of control because we ignored it for too long. Once we realized we had to go back into the room we had abandoned, we were pretty screwed.

And no one really wants to use 1 of their two precious actions to Extinguish the fire... never feels great to do.

So, I'd say that fire serves it's purpose. It bottlenecks your movement unless you want to take damage or waste actions getting rid of it. In my opinion, it's always best to just put a fire out before it spreads.

I also agree with other users saying to randomize the fire spreading with a die roll. Sounds like it'd make the mechanic a lot more enjoyable.
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amanwing
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Mindblown
We always thought the fire spreads to every available space. No wonder we ran out of fire markers always! But I must say at least it was dangerous for us.
 
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Justin Colm
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I wish the fire was controlled by the App. But I suspect it was beyond the scope of the App's capabilities. It's effectively a glorified card drawer and turn counter for the most part. It doesn't 'understand' anything about the game state. For the App to spread fire for instance it would have to be programmed with the knowledge that the tiles have spaces, which it currently has no awareness of. The tiles are just pictures it shows, with other pictures (tokens etc) overlaid.

I agree it's a very unsatisfying part of the game as it currently stands. On the rare occasions it is actually threatening, it is very quickly and easily extinguished.
 
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Chris Poor
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I suppose the app could be modified to give a direction that the fire must spread (North, South, East, West) and leave it up to the players to pick the space in the indicated direction. Then if you are at the edge of the map, it goes in the opposite direction.

Simpler solution is to roll a die. Elder sign means pick a space, Magnifying Glass means space farthest from as many investigators as possible, and Blank means as close to an investigator as possible.
 
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Matthew Carrington
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Ashes001 wrote:
Instead of being a suspenseful timer/game mechanic fire never was a danger at all, because every new round we just put one maker as far away from our investigators as possible. During later turns we didn´t even add markers anymore because it wouldn´t have made any difference if they were there or not. Due to that the extinguish fire action also felt quite useless.

How does everybody feel about this? Or did we do something terrible wrong?

@FFG: Please make the fire feature more dangerous & challenging for gameplay purposes


I still believe it should spread to all adjacent spaces not blocked by walls or other features (which I can't think of at present).

On balance from playing several games each way, I feel this is more appropriate. I agree fire is not really a problem the way the "concensus" is having us play it. If you want more of a challenge try it, spread the fire a different way, as depending on the starting location and timing of the fire(s) it can still go either way to help more, hinder more or cost you the game.

I have (slightly) eased my worries over it (the 1 single fire token placement) by thinking about scaling in physical dimensions and time. Each turn is most likely not entirely a fixed length of time, likewise the size of the figures is probably not exactly to scale with the scenery. Also some areas of the play area are likely more flammable than others.

Hope that helps ease your worries too :-)
 
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Drew Olds
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I'd agree, except that leaving a fire alone and letting it spread to spots that "don't matter" lost us the last game we played.
 
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Charlie Theel
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crispy66 wrote:
I suppose the app could be modified to give a direction that the fire must spread (North, South, East, West) and leave it up to the players to pick the space in the indicated direction. Then if you are at the edge of the map, it goes in the opposite direction.

Simpler solution is to roll a die. Elder sign means pick a space, Magnifying Glass means space farthest from as many investigators as possible, and Blank means as close to an investigator as possible.


It'd make more sense to modify the app to allow us to specify which space fire is in, and then the App will tell us which spaces it spreads to. So fire would be represented on the app just like Search tokens.
 
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