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Subject: Yet another mass shooting, this time 2 miles from my home. rss

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Trey Chambers
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Mass shootings, everywhere. Constantly. Why do we tolerate this?

The standard ammosexual responses usually fall into one of two categories:

"No solution would change anything." - Ridiculous. You don't even want to TRY any solutions, so how do you know they won't work? How many mass shootings has Australia had since their regulations? Very few to almost none, iirc.

"You can't stop crazy people from doing crazy things." - That's actually true, and I know mass knife attacks do occur on occasion, but I'd like to take my chances with the knife attacker vs. a gunman.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/26/us/houston-shooting/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/us/25shooters.html?_r=0

I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter, but I also think we need more regulations, more screenings, and more training for weapon owners. I can't promise we'll see the changes we want to see, but I *CAN* promise nothing will change if we don't try anything.
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Chad
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Shampoo4you wrote:

I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter, but I also think we need more regulations, more screenings, and more training for weapon owners. I can't promise we'll see the changes we want to see, but I *CAN* promise nothing will change if we don't try anything.




For a start, can enforce the laws we have on the books.

However, here is the situation America finds itself. When shooting happens the VAST majority (and the only reason I am not typing all - is because I am sure there are some viable suggestions that get lost in the noise) of the recommendations/plees to change

1) would not have stopped the incident that caused the suggestion to be put forward
2) display ignorance on what is actually causing said violence
3) Represent political agendas rather than meaningful suggestions to stop them

As I have said before, I am willing to listen to and implement suggestions if it means that we can stop having this stupid debate. But the suggestions need to

1) account for the laws already on the books
2) not put undue burdens on law abiding citizens
3) Demonstrate correlation between the suggestion and the anticipated effect.
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Matthew Schoell
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Utrecht wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter, but I also think we need more regulations, more screenings, and more training for weapon owners. I can't promise we'll see the changes we want to see, but I *CAN* promise nothing will change if we don't try anything.




For a start, can enforce the laws we have on the books.



I see this over and over again, about enforcing the laws we have on the books. What are the unenforced laws about gun ownership? What are the reasons behind lack of enforcement?
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Mike Stiles
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I'm more stuck on trying to parse what makes this seem a reasonable solution to people.

"I'm mad at my work, I guess the only solution is several murders and then suicide by cop!"

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We are all victims of a profoundly sick society, which thrives on violence to "solve problems" and settle disputes. There is no person or policy that will change this any time soon. If you want to see significant positive change, encourage a society that cares for all people and provides them with necessities of life and a relevant education in support of sustainable values. If we don't do that, soon it's going to happen to your town, to your friends, to your loved ones and to you too.
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Mass shootings, everywhere. Constantly.


Well, not really. There have been multiple shootings in various random locations. It's a big country, and we have a LOT of people.

I think the first thing we need to do is to deal with terms like "Everywhere" and "Constantly" and media sensationalism.

It's tragic, it has bad optics, but really, it's a minor thing. And I mean really minor.

The likelihood any American will die in a mass shooting, is about the same as winning the Powerball...

You are going to die in your 70's from heart failure. Be afraid of that. Put down the cheeseburger and eat more kale. That'll save way more lives.
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Chad
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Doc Mage wrote:
Utrecht wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter, but I also think we need more regulations, more screenings, and more training for weapon owners. I can't promise we'll see the changes we want to see, but I *CAN* promise nothing will change if we don't try anything.




For a start, can enforce the laws we have on the books.



I see this over and over again, about enforcing the laws we have on the books. What are the unenforced laws about gun ownership? What are the reasons behind lack of enforcement?


http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/obama-executive-order...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/31/obama-gun-co...

Are just two articles on it. The two most common are

1) Illegally selling a firearm
2) Prosecuting when a gun is used in conjunction with another crime

Most common issue are

1) Prosecutor focus
2) lack of resources
3) Bureaucratic red tape making the benefit/cost less appealing than other crimes.


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Damian
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Shampoo4you wrote:
I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter,

You need to stop saying this and have the self-respect to own your shitty opinion:
Shampoo4you wrote:
-complete ban of handguns

Shampoo4you wrote:
It's handguns. They should be banned.

Shampoo4you wrote:
My solution is simple and effective. Ban all handguns. 100% ban. Make it a felony to even own one.


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Andy Beaton
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MWChapel wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

Mass shootings, everywhere. Constantly.


Well, not really. There have been multiple shootings in various random locations. It's a big country, and we have a LOT of people.

I think the first thing we need to do is to deal with terms like "Everywhere" and "Constantly" and media sensationalism.

It's tragic, it has bad optics, but really, it's a minor thing. And I mean really minor.

The likelihood any American will die in a mass shooting, is about the same as winning the Powerball...

You are going to die in your 70's from heart failure. Be afraid of that. Put down the cheeseburger and eat more kale. That'll save way more lives.


Just for fun, I looked it up. The odds of an American dying of assault by firearm (not including suicide) are 1 in 300. I don't know how many people post in or follow RSP, but I would say the odds are pretty good that someone here will be murdered.

http://www.medhelp.org/general-health/articles/The-25-Most-C...

(kind of a ballpark number, but good enough for government work)
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Chad
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aiabx wrote:
Just for fun, I looked it up. The odds of an American dying of assault by firearm (not including suicide) are 1 in 300. I don't know how many people post in or follow RSP, but I would say the odds are pretty good that someone here will be murdered.

http://www.medhelp.org/general-health/articles/The-25-Most-C...

(kind of a ballpark number, but good enough for government work)


Andy,

to be fair, your statistic includes all gun related murders - not mass shootings.
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Shampoo4you wrote:

Mass shootings, everywhere. Constantly. Why do we tolerate this?

The standard ammosexual responses usually fall into one of two categories:

"No solution would change anything." - Ridiculous. You don't even want to TRY any solutions, so how do you know they won't work? How many mass shootings has Australia had since their regulations? Very few to almost none, iirc.

"You can't stop crazy people from doing crazy things." - That's actually true, and I know mass knife attacks do occur on occasion, but I'd like to take my chances with the knife attacker vs. a gunman.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/26/us/houston-shooting/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/25/us/25shooters.html?_r=0

I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter, but I also think we need more regulations, more screenings, and more training for weapon owners. I can't promise we'll see the changes we want to see, but I *CAN* promise nothing will change if we don't try anything.


If you were interested in finding a solution, you wouldn't have thrown ammosexual in there.

I'll listen when people are interested in having a HONEST discussion, which lets face it, people aren't.

I'll listen to reasonable gun control when politicians stop talking about shoulder things that go up.



Oh, and Australia basically enforced mass confiscation. Good luck trying that here.
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Damian
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aiabx wrote:
MWChapel wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

Mass shootings, everywhere. Constantly.


Well, not really. There have been multiple shootings in various random locations. It's a big country, and we have a LOT of people.

I think the first thing we need to do is to deal with terms like "Everywhere" and "Constantly" and media sensationalism.

It's tragic, it has bad optics, but really, it's a minor thing. And I mean really minor.

The likelihood any American will die in a mass shooting, is about the same as winning the Powerball...

You are going to die in your 70's from heart failure. Be afraid of that. Put down the cheeseburger and eat more kale. That'll save way more lives.


Just for fun, I looked it up. The odds of an American dying of assault by firearm (not including suicide) are 1 in 300. I don't know how many people post in or follow RSP, but I would say the odds are pretty good that someone here will be murdered.

http://www.medhelp.org/general-health/articles/The-25-Most-C...

(kind of a ballpark number, but good enough for government work)

You are conflating mass shootings, which Chapel mentioned, with all firearm homicides. Most of the latter are perpetrated by someone the victim knows, usually a family member or intimate relation. In fact, if you are a person who is personally worried about being a victim of gun violence, the most effective thing you can do is make sure there isn't a gun in your own home.
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J
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Robert Wesley
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soblue We also had that just happen up in Burlington, WA-state recently, as I've been there on numerous occasions during the 1990s, with condolences expressed toward those of you affected adversely.
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Tom McVey
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aiabx wrote:

Just for fun, I looked it up. The odds of an American dying of assault by firearm (not including suicide) are 1 in 300. I don't know how many people post in or follow RSP, but I would say the odds are pretty good that someone here will be murdered.


The odds are slightly higher of dying by a firearm homicide. There were about 2.6 million deaths in 2014 in the US, and just over 11,000 homicides by firearm. So it's about 1 in 230 chance of being murdered with a firearm.
 
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Andrew Bartosh

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COMPNOR wrote:
I'll listen when people are interested in having a HONEST discussion, which lets face it, people aren't.


Actually, I am interested if you want to chat a bit. Mostly I just want some perspective. I've been thinking about this a lot lately and I'm still trying to decide where I come down.

I'm kinda wishy-washy on both gun ownership and control. I recently had my dad suggest my wife and I pick one up for our home and we turned it down because we are both untrained (fixable), flighty, and honestly a bit nervous (less easily fixed).

As defenders rightfully say, there is value in people having immediate access to defense. Intelligent and capable concealed carry people can end a dangerous situation quickly, while the threat thereof can potentially deter it.

On the other hand, broad access to guns allows stupid/foolhardy people to quickly escalate situations (e.g. shittalking to shooting), there is a very obvious danger in mentally unstable people having easy access to deadly weapons (this is not to deny that they could get them illegally - just that it may be easier), and, of course, someone reacting stupidly in a dangerous situation can make it worse.

(We also have the really awkward situation where seemingly increased police militarization is causing problems for legal gun owners. That's not in either column really, just super unfortunate.)

The pros and cons are super real (and that's without getting into the 2nd Amendment, which I do feel is its own can of worms, hence focusing mostly on the practical).

I'm also a little curious about Open vs Concealed carry. Open has always felt a bit weird to me. At a level it just seems to be an open challenge or a "deal with me first" invitation. Concealed just makes more sense: you're not sure who or how many people are armed. But this is territory I know like, nothing about from the gun owner's perspective.

So yeah, I've never actually sat down and asked a gun owner much about their thoughts on these matters, so if you want to talk a bit to me (or not), feel free. Right now it is more just an academic interest to me.
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Utrecht wrote:
Andy,

to be fair, your statistic includes all gun related murders - not mass shootings.

Presumably gun control would affect these also.
 
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rekinom
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AndrewRogue wrote:
I'm kinda wishy-washy on both gun ownership and control. I recently had my dad suggest my wife and I pick one up for our home and we turned it down because we are both untrained (fixable), flighty, and honestly a bit nervous (less easily fixed).


If you have a backyard, buy a pellet gun (say a Beeman P17), some pellets, and a pellet trap. You will have spent less than $70 and have a chance to practice accuracy and good safety habits, but with less risk because that specific pellet gun can only be loaded with one round at a time, and is much less dangerous than a firearm.

If you decide to buy a firearm, get a .22 first. The ammo is inexpensive and the recoil is light to non-existent. Practice a lot, such as at a range, before moving up to something heavier.

AndrewRogue wrote:
I'm also a little curious about Open vs Concealed carry. Open has always felt a bit weird to me. At a level it just seems to be an open challenge or a "deal with me first" invitation. Concealed just makes more sense: you're not sure who or how many people are armed. But this is territory I know like, nothing about from the gun owner's perspective.

I look at open carry as a political statement. Like the black panthers carrying in the California capitol in the 1960s.

I would not open carry personally, but living in NY, I can't even if I wanted to.
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Trey Chambers
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damiangerous wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter,

You need to stop saying this and have the self-respect to own your shitty opinion:
Shampoo4you wrote:
-complete ban of handguns

Shampoo4you wrote:
It's handguns. They should be banned.

Shampoo4you wrote:
My solution is simple and effective. Ban all handguns. 100% ban. Make it a felony to even own one.




You can be pro-2nd amendment and be cool with not allowing civilians to mount miniguns on their roofs, what's wrong with not allowing civilians to own the type of weapon involved in 90-95% of gun crime? IT IS ONE *TYPE* OF GUN, that's all.

You can HUNT without a handgun.
You can DEFEND yourself without a handgun.
You can even "REBEL" against a tyrannical government without a handgun.

In fact, in all three legitimate uses of the weapon, and handgun is the worst type to use.

I would even support every American having a rifle in their home like Switzerland if it meant we could have a handgun ban. The simple fact is rifles are used in very, very few gun crimes. So yes, I am very pro-2nd amendment, fuck your dismissiveness.

And lastly, people like you calling other people's opinions shitty from the gate is why we can't have reasonable discourse here. You can disagree without being an asshole about it. Or can you?
 
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Damian
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Shampoo4you wrote:
You can be pro-2nd amendment and be cool with not allowing civilians to mount miniguns on their roofs, what's wrong with not allowing civilians to own the type of weapon involved in 90-95% of gun crime? IT IS ONE *TYPE* OF GUN, that's all.

Supporting a very limited subset of something does not make you a supporter of that thing. It can often make you an enemy of that thing.

The United States in 1919:
"I'm a big supporter of womens' rights!"
"Oh so you support the women's suffrage movement then?"
"Don't be ridiculous! I support them working outside the home and owning property. Just because I don't support the one thing they do that causes the most harm to the country doesn't make me opposed to women's rights!"

That's your argument. You are, in fact, an enemy of the second amendment. Be honest about it and own it.

Quote:
And lastly, people like you calling other people's opinions shitty from the gate is why we can't have reasonable discourse here. You can disagree without being an asshole about it. Or can you?

The guy whose original post included the made up insult, "ammosexual" has ZERO moral high ground on reasonable discourse. Give it up, you emotional knee-jerking hypocrite. You wouldn't know reasonable discussion if it presented an annotated document in your mailbox. I'm probably the most reasonable and logical second amendment supporter you'll ever meet in your lifetime (I think Ferret is a dangerously irresponsible gun owner, for example), which is why I stay out of the majority of gun threads, but I think you're an irrational lunatic on this topic.

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Matthew Schoell
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Utrecht wrote:
Doc Mage wrote:
Utrecht wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

I'm actually a big 2nd Amendment supporter, but I also think we need more regulations, more screenings, and more training for weapon owners. I can't promise we'll see the changes we want to see, but I *CAN* promise nothing will change if we don't try anything.




For a start, can enforce the laws we have on the books.



I see this over and over again, about enforcing the laws we have on the books. What are the unenforced laws about gun ownership? What are the reasons behind lack of enforcement?


http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/09/politics/obama-executive-order...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/31/obama-gun-co...

Are just two articles on it. The two most common are

1) Illegally selling a firearm
2) Prosecuting when a gun is used in conjunction with another crime

Most common issue are

1) Prosecutor focus
2) lack of resources
3) Bureaucratic red tape making the benefit/cost less appealing than other crimes.




Thank you. That all seems necessary, but not sufficient.
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Trey Chambers
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Shampoo4you wrote:

I would even support every American having a rifle in their home like Switzerland if it meant we could have a handgun ban.


damiangerous wrote:
You are, in fact, an enemy of the second amendment. Be honest about it and own it.


I literally say "put a gun in every home as long as you ban the one and only most dangerous type of gun", and you turn around and call me a lunatic and an enemy of the second amendment. One of us is a lunatic, that's for sure.

This is why we can't have a debate, because I say put a gun in every home but make some other changes, and you immediately dismiss me and think I'm "comin 4 ur gunz!" There's no talking about reasonable compromise when you come at it like that.

And your bullshit analogy is just that, bullshit. Guns are not women. Gun rights are now women's rights.

Every sane person, even 2nd amendment defenders like myself, is for reasonable gun control and banning certain TYPES of guns. We don't want civilians running around with laser guns and rail guns, two very dangerous technologies that will soon be actually available. We don't want civilians with miniguns or anti-tank rifles, both technologies that are already available.
 
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Trey Chambers
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MWChapel wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:

Mass shootings, everywhere. Constantly.


Well, not really. There have been multiple shootings in various random locations. It's a big country, and we have a LOT of people.


But where else does it happen like this? There are countries bigger than us. But no one has as many gun problems.

"Constantly" is relative. And people in other countries (as well as some here) think it happens all the time here, because to them it seems like it does.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-leads-world-in-mass-shooting...
 
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Damian
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Shampoo4you wrote:
This is why we can't have a debate, because I say put a gun in every home but make some other changes, and you immediately dismiss me and think I'm "comin 4 ur gunz!" There's no talking about reasonable compromise when you come at it like that.

There's also no talking about "reasonable compromise" when you say things like "Ban all handguns". That's not reasonable, it's not going to happen in our lifetime and it's not even a rational way to approach the problem. It'as literally "comin 4 ur gunz". You can't paint yourself as "the reasonable one" when your only suggestion is an ultimatum that doesn't give a crap about the people and the history involved.

When you are ready to actually compromise, which means you have to give up some part of what you desire, then we can talk. An outright ban is off the table. Move on. Also, a "supporter" of something doesn't look for ways to regulate and restrict it as much as humanly possible.
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Trey Chambers
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damiangerous wrote:
Shampoo4you wrote:
This is why we can't have a debate, because I say put a gun in every home but make some other changes, and you immediately dismiss me and think I'm "comin 4 ur gunz!" There's no talking about reasonable compromise when you come at it like that.

There's also no talking about "reasonable compromise" when you say things like "Ban all handguns". That's not reasonable, it's not going to happen in our lifetime and it's not even a rational way to approach the problem. It'as literally "comin 4 ur gunz". You can't paint yourself as "the reasonable one" when your only suggestion is an ultimatum that doesn't give a crap about the people and the history involved.

When you are ready to actually compromise, which means you have to give up some part of what you desire, then we can talk. An outright ban is off the table. Move on. Also, a "supporter" of something doesn't look for ways to regulate and restrict it as much as humanly possible.


Ignoring for a second that half the stuff you said is either false or a twisting of my argument, I'm totally willing to compromise.

You're right, a handgun ban probably won't happen anytime soon because the attitudes towards guns in this country IS insane, much like yourself, but that doesn't make it an insane argument. But like anything else, with enough education, you can win people over. And the simple fact is that handguns are used in almost ALL gun crimes, but you don't need them for any of the legitimate uses of guns: hunting, defense, rebellion.

There are many ways it could be engineered with compromises. A buy-back, an exchange, a phase-out. Many ways. But going right to dismissal and insults like you did is a bad way to handle any reasonable debate.

And yea I was wrong to use ammosexual to kick off the debate, but the shooting literally happened near me so it was in the heat of the moment.
 
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