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Dungeon Saga: Dwarf King's Quest» Forums » General

Subject: DS Players - opinions on Star Saga please rss

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C B
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I'm purposely posting here in the DS forum because I'm specifically interested in what DS players think about Star Saga.

Is anyone excited?
Do you trust Mantic actually got the advanced rules right?

My personal opinion is leaning towards Mantic hasn't demonstrated they have actually accomplished what they claim.
I really want to believe they fixed the advanced rules. I mainly want Star Saga to get a copy of the rules so I can retro fit them to DS. Not the best reason to spend $100 +S/H, I know.


It sure was nice of Mantic to send that warning message like they said they would to give people an honest chance to snag an early bird, wasn't it?
 
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Brad P
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ampoliros wrote:
I'm purposely posting here in the DS forum because I'm specifically interested in what DS players think about Star Saga.

Is anyone excited?
Do you trust Mantic actually got the advanced rules right?

My personal opinion is leaning towards Mantic hasn't demonstrated they have actually accomplished what they claim.
I really want to believe they fixed the advanced rules. I mainly want Star Saga to get a copy of the rules so I can retro fit them to DS. Not the best reason to spend $100 +S/H, I know.


It sure was nice of Mantic to send that warning message like they said they would to give people an honest chance to snag an early bird, wasn't it?


They have showed very little of the "Advanced Rules" that they supposed built in from the ground up this time. I do not really think they understand the issues with the AC and such.
 
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JD Snider
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From looking at the Kickstarter page, I'm not terribly impressed with Star Saga. Looks a bit uninspired to be honest (fighting lab techs and security guards doesn't feel terribly epic to me, though maybe they'll throw in some Angry Kitchen Staff as a stretch goal to spice things up). And as for the 'Advanced Rules', they have nothing to show. Knowing Mantic I wouldn't be surprised if they just ran a Find and Replace on the Adventurer's Companion. OK I'm not 100% serious - but you get my drift.
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Brad P
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quazai wrote:
From looking at the Kickstarter page, I'm not terribly impressed with Star Saga. Looks a bit uninspired to be honest (fighting lab techs and security guards doesn't feel terribly epic to me, though maybe they'll throw in some Angry Kitchen Staff as a stretch goal to spice things up). And as for the 'Advanced Rules', they have nothing to show. Knowing Mantic I wouldn't be surprised if they just ran a Find and Replace on the Adventurer's Companion. OK I'm not 100% serious - but you get my drift.


I think many DS backers have expensive proof that they do not know what Find and Replace is.
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John Paul Messerly
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It sounds like its based off Dungeon Saga which is a red flag. Dungeon Saga just wasn't fun... yes there were lots of issues with the kickstarter but the real problem was the core mechanics were just dull. It ended up being one of my most played games this year... not because I enjoyed it but because I felt so bad about how much money I had invested in it. I kept forcing myself to giving it another chance in the hopes that I would eventually enjoy it.

I don't dislike Mantic I just find myself disappointed more often than not. I loved their Mars Attacks miniature game and I really enjoyed the PNP version of their upcoming Walking Dead game. At this point I'm only interested in their licensed games... they are just more polished, refined, and fun.
 
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Rick Vinyard
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Initial thoughts: The artwork just isn't as epic as Dungeon Saga, Deadzone or Mars Attacks. Frankly, I'm underwhelmed compared to the aforementioned. My wife hasn't seen it yet, but I predict her response will be the same.

Visually, this just doesn't look like a Mantic project to me, which is concerning. I know they messed up with Dungeon Saga, but in the end I'm happy with the project, and I've been happy with Mars Attacks and Deadzone.

The tiles look... meh. I have a lot of Imperial Assault stuff, and so far these just don't match up. I'm hoping there will be more in-depth RPG elements to Star Saga, but then I'm also hoping they'll continue on with Dungeon Saga.

I was in from day 1 on the aforementioned, and solidly in... no waffling... no should I, or shouldn't I. Just, in.

But, with Star Saga I'm waffling, and hoping to see more.
 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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ampoliros wrote:
I'm purposely posting here in the DS forum because I'm specifically interested in what DS players think about Star Saga.

Is anyone excited?
Do you trust Mantic actually got the advanced rules right?

My personal opinion is leaning towards Mantic hasn't demonstrated they have actually accomplished what they claim.
I really want to believe they fixed the advanced rules. I mainly want Star Saga to get a copy of the rules so I can retro fit them to DS. Not the best reason to spend $100 +S/H, I know.


It sure was nice of Mantic to send that warning message like they said they would to give people an honest chance to snag an early bird, wasn't it?


They admitted in the KS comments for Star Saga the rules are not even finished yet. That was enough for me to back away.
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Kevin Riddle

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I'm excited
I figure more stuff to integrate with Deadzone

and the tiles are not final artwork
 
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Wayne Shepherdson
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I'll skip on it. I wouldnt drop 100usd++ on game which is based on something I already have.

I thought dungeon saga was ok. Was looking forward to the campaign but didnt like the fact that the good guys power up every round wheareas the bad buy has only a choice to power up the bosses/minibosses.
 
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Alex Grant
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Pass. Dungeon Saga was bland. And I don't have much faith in Mantic after their poor handling of the DS kickstarter.

Star Wars: Imperial Assault and Galaxy Defenders are both science fiction dungeon crawls that are far better than Dungeon Saga, especially Imperial Assault.
 
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Brad P
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When people are most excited about the plastic scatter terrain and doors, there you need to have caution. I tried the first two demo missions. First mission is so easy and simple that it is almost pointless even as a train exercise other than to teach me that I could not figure out how reinforcements was supposed to work from the rulebook. Finished it in 3 turns both times taking 1 damage total between the two and that was after missing my first shot each time.

I played the second training mission. It had the opposite problem of just lasting to long. Maybe it was a bad overlord card draw but I ended up at least 2 turns where nothing happened. I had 2 mercs camping spawn points and another decativated where the minions where and could not get a card with reinforcements to place them at one of the other points.
 
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Michael Russell
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I backed DS. They will not get my money for this one.
 
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Nevin Ball
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Mantic is forming an advanced rules committee recruited from us players. This gives me hope that the AC will done right in a second edition.

With that said, I only have the time (painting) and budget to invest in one system and that's DS.
 
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Not enough has been revealed, but feeling the game will be too basic. I would hope a hybrid between Descent gameplay and Dungeon Saga's reveal as you go + build hero from scratch mechanisms. The planned semi-random skill learning system pales when compared to Descent's choose what you want as long as you can afford it.
 
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Thorsten Schröder
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My group likes the core game of DS a lot.
Only problem with the DS KS was the AC. That one was rushed and they should have put more time on it than they did and should have playtested it extensively. They should have known that the advanced play is whats going to be judged online (where the enthusiasts who take their time to write in blogs and forums are).

Mantic has a lot of good games out there and when they made 2nd editions those were generally an improvement.

I think they can get it right. But they have to show something early in this KS...At the moment I am on this KS. Just to see how it goes. But I guess I will drop it. I am not that excited about scifi and the warpath universe.

I just wished they would have gone back to the AC and made that work before they started StarSaga.
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John Paul Messerly
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The one thing I do like about Star Saga is the idea of replacing magic with hacking. Unfortunately the hacking mechanic is quite dull... No risk, reward, push your luck element. Even the ranged combat lacks that element... They could easily add an option where you can choose to add more dice (full auto) but that increases your chances to jam or run out of ammo. Warfighter does this and it makes for gunfights where you always have interesting choices to make.

Hacking could have a balance between how much you put into of offence vs defense for 'the cyber' attacks. Human Interface Nakamura Tower does this well... If your hacking attempt fails you will have to immediately defend against the networks response but if you succeed then there will be no counter hack from the enemy network.
 
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My thoughts "cut and paste from the KS page"...

@Mantic Games - Based on what I am seeing commented so far, it looks like this is only barely alpha and without being disrespectful, making it up as you go along. It feels too open to changes with little roadmap.

I completely get the effort that is required in making games, this is not a pimp here but want to show I know what I am talking about ( http://www.agencyboardgame.com/ ) however this feels so WIP.

Companies use KS as either a pre-sale or to bring a game to market. This seems so far up the development track we're seeing not very much apart from a few sculpts.

The gameplay video was proxied from what I could tell, I've got no idea of what the tiles are even going to look like for the game apart from a top view of some drawings.

Having gone "all-in" on Dungeon Saga ( and Walking Dead ), can you assure us that we will have all the gaps bottomed out before this completes so we know excatly what we're getting.

I do not want to be negitive here, but DS seemed so much more advanced when you brought it to KS and look at all the problems that had. This just seems a stretch away from that.

You really should not be in the position of making rules up here at this stage. Tweaking yes, but not the way it feels.

I want this to be a huge success but it does not feel right and I am seeking reassurance from you about what the real stage of this project is ?

Finally, get you get the BGG page up please ( I know it can be done in a day or so having done it myself ) so we can have some independant chat about this ?

Thank you.
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Zombie Fifty-Seven
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Stew from Mantic responded to the above post. Here's the response and the link for completeness...

"@Zombie57 - thank you for the detailed comments.

We are not making this up as we are going along, we are running a Kickstarter. We have a well-detailed plan for the game, but part of the point of getting this in front of backers a year before launch is so that we can take feedback on board. If we had waited until a later stage in the development to show it off, it would take a lot more work to fix anything that was spotted, or integrate anything that was wanted by the players. I appreciate that not all companies work like this, but we have always been very open to input and feedback from our customers and that is not an aspect of Mantic that I want to change - I love it.

DS may have looked more advanced, but I assure you that it wasn't. We had more in the way of sculpts and art, because that side of the project had been on the back burner for about a year before we started the KS. The rules however, were not as advanced as these ones are, and all of the advanced rules weren't even started until after the KS - that is what caused the problems and that's why they weren't integrated very well - something we are fixing this time. With this project we are not only working on all aspects of the rules at the same time, but also getting all of the miniatures and components done at the same time, so that we can ensure everything works how it should, and we don't have to force the rules to work with pre-designed components, or tack things on afterwards.

Hopefully this makes things clear. I apologise if it comes across as abrupt, I'm just trying to explain the situation :-). If I've missed anything please let me know and I'll be back to answer it.

To cover your other points, I'll get Adam or Rob on the BGG page asap, and we've been talking tile art on the Facebook group here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/902895733150030/. I'm just getting a new version sorted now. Once we've got some consensus, we'll get more pieces done and do an update to clarify it all.

Thanks

Stew"

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1744629938/star-saga-th...
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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Thanks for posting that here, definitely danger signs in my opinion.
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Right now the project looks to be sitting at about 60 dollars of value for 105 dollars shipped to states (if you have early bird). Base game is like 80 but you assume standard discounts and such to get to 60. Both expansion currently value as vaporware as they are detail free rules which with Mantic is never a good sign. Even assuming they are worth while they ring in about 20 dollars each after discounts and such so just about break even for buying it in a year with the option to only get the good stuff.

That is not bad given that it is only three days in. I would project about 450K in funding which should yield some more stuff but I think some of that will be add on stuff which then adds to the shipping costs since it is two shipments.
 
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The desired value is not there yet, but will keep my early bird to see how campaign proceed. For me the mission builder expansion feels unnecessary investment if it's just guidelines to plan own scenarios. If it included random scenario creator evolving into campaign that would be interesting, but I think it was referred that no Uncharted Dungeons 2.0 module was planned yet.
 
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Allan Rodda
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I asked on the kickstarter page and they said that there are no plans for random dungeon generation. I'll find the exact quote.

Quote:
Currently we are not planning a random mission generator, but we'll see how it goes during the KS. We've got so many cool things that we want to include in the game that trying to fit them into a structured system would either end up as too loose, or too clunky - there are too many rules that would need defining for each and every room you enter. What we are going to do however is continue to release missions for free online on a regular basis following launch - one or two a month. That way there will always be something new to play without you having to design anything yourself.


I guess what that means is "it's too hard to figure out a way to include the hacking mechanic into a random dungeon". I guess the idea of having a deck of event cards didn't occur to them. Something like "Door is locked at level 3, place a terminal at least 8 spaces away" would be fine for that sort of thing. But then it wouldn't be that hard to piece together a system for this after the fact, the game seems to be a little more open and modular than Dungeon Saga was, or at least potentially in need of less work to get it into a playable sate.

I wouldn't get too excited about campaigns either, there's no real campaign system in the game other than drawing new skills when you level up and spending 'victory points' for new equipment between missions. The credit value listed on the equipment cards is only used as a point value for if you want to build new mercs to take on an advanced mission.

Quote:
'Missions' are only parts of a longer story, so there will not be any money between games at the moment - the mercs won't get paid until they complete the overall objective - they won't get paid for completing each stage of it. One thing we can do in the mission creator is to give the mercs their pay after completing a whole campaign, which could allow them to buy a new set of items that they can't request between missions. We already have tiers of equipment, so this would just add another tier.


It sounds like they are willing to listen to feedback, but at the moment it feels like they haven't thought too hard about how the game is going to work outside of the missions in the core box. That's not very promising as it's exactly the sort of thing that caused problems with Dungeon Saga.

I hate to be negative because I wanted to like the game, but there are too many inconsistencies with the design. It's weird that they are including sandboxy rules as expansions, but aren't taking them far enough to be really interesting. A character creator on its own isn't particularly exciting, you might as well just include a half-dozen or so generic character archetypes like Heroquest did. Letting someone name their character goes a long way towards giving them ownership over it. It's also weird that they keep saying the primary focus is on a narrative experience, yet again they are going out of their way to put sandbox like tools into the game. It's like they either can't decide what they want it to be, or they think a superficial level of 'advanced rules' is enough to draw people in.

At any rate, it would be nice if the game was a little more in depth, but it isn't and probably won't ever be. I don't really hold out much hope of the Dungeon Saga revisions based on this actually doing much other than making it into a competent Hero Quest clone with a few whizzy bits rather than the spiritual successor of Warhammer Quest that I'm sure at least a few of us wanted it to be.

Edit: Removed the number of missions, I had it wrong.
 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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6 missions .... only?
 
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Grumsh wrote:
6 missions .... only?

I am pretty sure it is supposed to be 10 plus 2 intro missions and if this next guy unlocks 11. I will find out and lock them to it.

Intro missions on the kickstarter page are part of the 10.

 
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Michael Off The Shelf Board Game Reviews
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eriochrome wrote:
Grumsh wrote:
6 missions .... only?

I am pretty sure it is supposed to be 10 plus 2 intro missions and if this next guy unlocks 11. I will find out and lock them to it.

Intro missions on the kickstarter page are part of the 10.



Ahh, okay.
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said only 6 missions but I see they edited their post. Only 6 missions would be very BAD!
 
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