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Subject: Regarding God and free will rss

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Kelsey Rinella
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I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.
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rinelk wrote:
I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.

I'm not sure if you have been listening to too much Joel Osteen on Sunday mornings or something, but God desires all to freely come to him in faith. Faith is not certainty. It's trust. Commitment. Believing in him so strongly that it seeps into your soul, hair, fingernails, and becomes a part of everything you think and do. God knows your motivation, intention, and sincerity quite well and will send grace your way accordingly.
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Junior McSpiffy
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rinelk wrote:
I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.


This logical gotcha is so lacking, the thread title needs ellipses.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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rinelk wrote:
the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

It's a nonsense argument. First, free will is meaningless without knowledge; you can't choose to serve God unless you believe God exists. And second, if firsthand experience of God honestly destroys one's free will, then what are we saying is God's attitude toward the free will of Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, etc.?

As it is, you know for a fact that there is no God which has both the ability and the desire to reveal its existence to you. What more is there to say about it?
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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God could smack you upside the head under no uncertain terms, and human nature is to write it off as a coincidence or fluke. Why? Because we'd have to reevaluate our lives. That's tough. It's human nature to resist that. It's much easier to write it off and continue living as we are accustomed.

There are people who have been smacked upside the head and did reevaluate their lives.

It is said that a smart man learns from his mistakes, while a wise man learns from other's mistakes.

Do you want God to smack you upside the head?

If he did would you reevaluate your life? Most wouldn't.
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Rebecca Carpenter
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To believe that argument I'd have to believe in free will.
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Mutton Chops
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Koldfoot wrote:
God could smack you upside the head under no uncertain terms...


You mean it would be certain (i.e. not "uncertain") that it was a god which had done the smacking? If so, who wouldn't re-evaluate their life? I know I would.

I've never heard of this ever happening, though, outside of religious texts or historical events without independent observation, so the point seems moot, to me.
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Ron Preisach
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kuhrusty wrote:
rinelk wrote:
the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

It's a nonsense argument. First, free will is meaningless without knowledge; you can't choose to serve God unless you believe God exists. And second, if firsthand experience of God honestly destroys one's free will, then what are we saying is God's attitude toward the free will of Adam, Eve, Noah, Moses, etc.?

As it is, you know for a fact that there is no God which has both the ability and the desire to reveal its existence to you. What more is there to say about it?


God was a regular Chatty Cathy back in the day.
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Robert Stuart
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rinelk wrote:
I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.

Hey, give it time! If you're sincere in your wish for clear evidence, it will come! If not -- if this is just some cheap trick to score a point in an argument -- well, God isn't a cheap conjurer! Just remember: you've asked for clear evidence of God's existence to appear to you in such a fashion that you yourself will accept it, without it becoming so crystal clear to anyone else! (You may have given up your free will in this matter, but everyone else has not).
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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bob_santafe wrote:
Just remember: you've asked for clear evidence of God's existence to appear to you in such a fashion that you yourself will accept it, without it becoming so crystal clear to anyone else! (You may have given up your free will in this matter, but everyone else has not).

How hard is that? The church puts God's 800 number on their web site. People who choose to call it talk to God and get the information they need; people who choose not to call it can believe whatever they want about it. Next!
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Robert Stuart
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kuhrusty wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
Just remember: you've asked for clear evidence of God's existence to appear to you in such a fashion that you yourself will accept it, without it becoming so crystal clear to anyone else! (You may have given up your free will in this matter, but everyone else has not).

How hard is that? The church puts God's 800 number on their web site. People who choose to call it talk to God and get the information they need; people who choose not to call it can believe whatever they want about it. Next!

But you're not like other people. Some people believe in God because of cultural background or because of superstition. There are others who believe in God -- or have come to believe in God -- out of their own knowing. You're in that latter category -- that is, you aren't gong to believe in God unless you come to the realization out of your own knowing.
 
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Mutton Chops
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bob_santafe wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.

Hey, give it time! If you're sincere in your wish for clear evidence, it will come! If not -- if this is just some cheap trick to score a point in an argument -- well, God isn't a cheap conjurer!


This is a dodge, indulging in both the fallacies of begging the question, and self-sealing argument. It presupposes that the existence of a god is a given thing, thus assuming an undemonstrated conclusion, and dishonestly implies that if one never encounters such evidence, one was simply point-scoring.
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Paul DeStefano
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I've long been of the side that not only is there no free will, but consciousness itself is not only a quirk of chemistry and physics and due to that no 'choice' has ever been made any more than an apple chooses to fall due to gravity.

That which is is because it has to be. It is an incomprehensible cascade of gears, from dust motes to galaxies.

God is simply the encompassing of the laws of existence in manifestations we can observe. Tree. Fire. Wind. Our mind cannot conceive the infinity of rules in all of the interactions of nature, including the nature of the electro chemical nature of our mind.

Of course there is no free will. Only the illusion that you could have made a different choice. You MUST pull your hand from the hot stove. If you don't - then every moment in existence has lead to the reason of you not doing so. In which case, you couldn't have done it anyway.

All existence is concurrent. This movie has been filmed. We're merely witnessing it one frame at a time. But the rules and laws are set, regardless of our understanding of them. We cannot change that movie. Only enjoy it as it unfolds.
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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I've long believed in limited free will.

Religiously, free will is simple from a Jewish perspective. When the person makes a decision is when G-d does; it's the same act.

Physically, I tend to the view of the human mind as an emergent phenomenon. Physical limitations do exist but most of hte time one is practically able to choose freely.
 
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whac3 wrote:
I've long believed in limited free will.


So, like, rented will.
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ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
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Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I've long believed in limited free will.


So, like, rented will.

No, will that is free but not absolutely free.

EDIT:
You pay no money but owe your uncle a favor.
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whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I've long believed in limited free will.


So, like, rented will.

No, will that is free but not absolutely free.


TANSTAAFL will.
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Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I've long believed in limited free will.


So, like, rented will.

No, will that is free but not absolutely free.


TANSTAAFL will.

pretty much
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Paul DeStefano
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whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I've long believed in limited free will.


So, like, rented will.

No, will that is free but not absolutely free.


TANSTAAFL will.

pretty much


Your view is pretty much my movie noted above, but with a little more improv.
 
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Robert Stuart
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mutton_chops wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.

Hey, give it time! If you're sincere in your wish for clear evidence, it will come! If not -- if this is just some cheap trick to score a point in an argument -- well, God isn't a cheap conjurer!


This is a dodge, indulging in both the fallacies of begging the question, and self-sealing argument.

If it were an argument you'd be right. But it's not an argument -- it's a response.

mutton_chops wrote:
It presupposes that the existence of a god is a given thing

Yes.

mutton_chops wrote:
thus assuming an undemonstrated conclusion

Yes. But, as mentioned above, this isn't an argument. It's a response to a very personal appeal (The appeal being, "Oh God, give me proof if indeed You do exist")

mutton_chops wrote:
and dishonestly implies that if one never encounters such evidence, one was simply point-scoring.

Not at all. I'm saying that if he's point-scoring he will unlikely encounter such evidence. The converse isn't true: it's not correct to say that if he doesn't encounter such evidence he was just point-scoring.
 
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Kelsey Rinella
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Phate999 wrote:
… God desires all to freely come to him in faith. Faith is not certainty. It's trust.


He can't get that from me. He's never going to have my trust without evidence of a kind I can't explain some other way. So He can either respect my freedom to choose, or not. If what you're saying is that He only cares about my free will so long as it gets Him what He wants, then He doesn't care about my free will at all, only getting what He wants.

Koldfoot wrote:
God could smack you upside the head under no uncertain terms, and human nature is to write it off as a coincidence or fluke.



Do you want God to smack you upside the head?

If he did would you reevaluate your life? Most wouldn't.


Are you suggesting it is beyond God's power to make me believe without doing the same for others? That's exactly what I'm asking for. If there is a God of something like the Christian variety, I am dooming myself to eternal Hell. Of COURSE I would want to re-evaluate my life!

bob_santafe wrote:
If you're sincere in your wish for clear evidence, it will come!


That's an interesting question. I don't sincerely wish for evidence, because I do not wish to be persuaded of a falsehood and I currently believe there is no God. But, if I am wrong and there IS a God, then I'm pretty sure I'd want to know. It's kind of a high-stakes error, right? Unless there's some theory operating according to which I might falsely believe I want to know (which often seems to be implied), then I think I'm in the clear. I mean, Hell sounds pretty bad. I'm just not that stubborn or short-sighted or opposed to admitting error that I think I'd be willing to admit I was wrong on gun control when the stakes are nothing, but unwilling to learn there is a God when the stakes are literally infinite pain.
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Mutton Chops
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bob_santafe wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
bob_santafe wrote:
rinelk wrote:
I think I have a good rejoinder to the argument that God refuses to provide persuasive evidence of His existence because to do so would effectively destroy our free will, and he values that free will too much to allow it:

God, if you exist, clear evidence of your existence matters more to me than all of the future choices I might make freely. So I now freely choose that you provide me such evidence.

Aaaand, nope. God apparently doesn't both respect my freedom to choose and also exist.

Hey, give it time! If you're sincere in your wish for clear evidence, it will come! If not -- if this is just some cheap trick to score a point in an argument -- well, God isn't a cheap conjurer!


This is a dodge, indulging in both the fallacies of begging the question, and self-sealing argument.

If it were an argument you'd be right. But it's not an argument -- it's a response.


Your "response" contains premises and conclusions, the first premise apparently being that a god does exist. Further, if X, then Y: if you're sincere, then clear evidence will come; if your enquiry is a cheap trick, then (implicitly), it won't. I'd call that an argument. It's also a claim, but it's in the form of an argument.

bob_santafe wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
It presupposes that the existence of a god is a given thing

Yes.


Very well.

bob_santafe wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
thus assuming an undemonstrated conclusion

Yes. But, as mentioned above, this isn't an argument. It's a response to a very personal appeal (The appeal being, "Oh God, give me proof if indeed You do exist")


Well, as I said, I think it is an argument, and the assumed premise, that a god exists, is undemonstrated.

bob_santafe wrote:
mutton_chops wrote:
and dishonestly implies that if one never encounters such evidence, one was simply point-scoring.

Not at all. I'm saying that if he's point-scoring he will unlikely encounter such evidence. The converse isn't true: it's not correct to say that if he doesn't encounter such evidence he was just point-scoring.


It seemed implicit, but I'm glad of the clarification. What's not clear to me, though, is how "point scoring", as you call it, would have any bearing on whether one will receive evidence of a god, since it suggests a value-judgement on the state of mind of the individual seeking the evidence which is impossible to make. How does one determine the validity of a given individual's desire for evidence? How would you define an insincere request for evidence, for example?
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Paul DeStefano
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whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I've long believed in limited free will.


So, like, rented will.

No, will that is free but not absolutely free.


TANSTAAFL will.

pretty much


It is here I have to point out just how much I love some of the dialogue in BGG RSP. I can say something as esoteric and nonsensical as "TANSTAAFL will" and half around the world, a brother I have never met shrugs and agrees.

We live in cool times.
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My dog has free will.
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