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Mare Nostrum: Empires» Forums » General

Subject: Thoughts about Heroes/Wonders rss

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Nicholas
Germany
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We did play two games (6 player, no legendary city heroes) yesterday and I was wondering how other people feel about the heroes/wonders.


Chiron (Centaur unit) was an instant hit and wreaked havoc on the Babylonian/Egyptian border in both games.

Ramses II (+ 1 die in landbattles) was in high demand too and even copied in both games, if I recall correctly.

Spartacus (legion for 1 coin/gladiator) was taken in both games too. Multiple people wanted to buy him at the same time!

The Temple of Artemis/Colossus (1 coin/1 good) were taken in both games. I think they are best for Egypt/Carthage, as both only need 11 coins/ressources +1 to build the Pyramids. Still not bad for everyone else.

I had Hanging Gardens as Carthage in one game. The ability is nice, but nothing ground breaking. +2 Trade was very useful though.

Gilgamesh (fortress for 1 coin/stone) was bought as well. I think he's not as good as Spartacus, as you need a territory for each fortress.

Antigone (decide yourself how many ressources you want to trade) was taken in both games, and the players who had her, were very delighted to ignore my wise trade leader choices. I'm not a fan of hers.

Hercules wasn't bought at all. I think he's nice if you are going for the win through leadership, as a final push. I have the impression that Greece has the best shot to do so.

Hamilcar wasn't bought in those games, but I had him in a previous game. I think he's one of the best heroes available, especially if you are going for a coin-Pyramid victory. Raze two cities for a total of 4 gold is extremly powerful, if you are able to pull it off.


So, what are your thoughts?


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Roger Reisinger
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Re: Thoughts aber Heroes/Wonders
Did you play that all leaders are available for purchase? If you did, how do you compare it to having only 6 available at any one time?
 
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Nicholas
Germany
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Yes, we played with all heroes open. I only have one game with hidden heroes to compare. However, I greatly prefer the open heroes. With only 5 open at a time, there is a high chance that there are no interesting heroes.
If you play with all heroes open, it is a harder decision wheter or not you will buy a hero or other stuff.
New players complained at first a bit about "so many heroes!", but this was quickly a non-issue.
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Eric Guttag
United States
West Chester
Ohio
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Hey Nicholas,

I actually prefer having only 5 Heroes/Wonders available at any time. My concern when you make all Heroes/Wonders available is that you'll more likely see the same plays in taking Heroes/Wonders. By revealing only 5 at a time, you force the players to respond to what's available, rather making the same choices depending upon which empire you're playing. Just my preference.
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James Park
United States
Ohio
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I don't prefer to have all heroes open, it leads to engine building, where each game is just a matter of getting your heroes out. As someone said previously, I think only having five out forces you to adjust to the conditions of the game. It also increases variability in the game play.

I think most of the heroes are good and somewhat well balanced. I do think some are clearly deficient. For instance, I don't think Gilgamesh is particularly useful, partially because there are only five forts available and you start with one. So you don't get to get much use of his power. Whereas, at least with Spartacus, you can usually use him at least once a turn.

But if you use the five hero option, sometimes you will have games where none of the available heroes are useful, since it's all situational. I think a house rule where you reset the heroes if no one buys one after two rounds (maybe excluding turn one) might help with that.
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Frank Strauss
Germany
Berlin
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Nicholas M wrote:
Yes, we played with all heroes open. I only have one game with hidden heroes to compare. However, I greatly prefer the open heroes. With only 5 open at a time, there is a high chance that there are no interesting heroes.
If you play with all heroes open, it is a harder decision wheter or not you will buy a hero or other stuff.
New players complained at first a bit about "so many heroes!", but this was quickly a non-issue.


A quick houserule:
If no Hero/Wonder is taken in a given turn, just add another one or two to the open pool.
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Nicholas
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Eric G wrote:
Hey Nicholas,

I actually prefer having only 5 Heroes/Wonders available at any time. My concern when you make all Heroes/Wonders available is that you'll more likely see the same plays in taking Heroes/Wonders. By revealing only 5 at a time, you force the players to respond to what's available, rather making the same choices depending upon which empire you're playing. Just my preference.


Sure, I can see your point. However - how often have you played the game? Are you (or anyone here, for that matter) experienced enough by now to know the "perfect" engine, which is best every single time?

Besides - that is were player interaction comes in. If someone is buying the perfect engine, don't let him. Attack him. Or set trade in a way that it's not possible for him. I think it is highly unlikely that there is a single best combination of Heroes which is best every time. I do have enough trust in the designer to believe that this is not the case.
I do see the advantage of "forcing nations to play differently each time". However, I do not think that this outweighs the possibility of a nation being severly handicapped in comparison to some other nations, just because of the Heroes who came up.


But I would actually prefer it if this topic is more about the different Heroes/Wonders, their usability and strenghts, instead of a debate wheter 5 open heroes or all open heroes are better.
Interested in anyone's thoughts about the heroes!
 
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Rob W
United States
Arizona
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I'll take you up on that:

I've said elsewhere that I think Aeneas seems overpowered. He negates one hit against your legions per battle, both battles that you start as well as battles that others start with you. That's a lot of legions being saved/sets of 3 resources being not expended. Most of the heroes seem to require several rounds to reach a break even point on the resources spent to buy the hero. Aeneas can do it in a single round by saving three legions.

Compare with Orpheus. He resurrects one and only one legion per round. He is sad because Aeneas is so much better at his job.

Any thoughts? Agree/disagree?
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Nicholas
Germany
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I agree. He is definitly better than Ramses, better than Chiron/Achilles (as you need to have the unit present to gain the bonus) and clearly much better than Orpheus.
Another one which seems a bit overpowered to me is Agamemnon. Very large benefit compared to other heroes. And he even gives two leadership bonuses!
 
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Roger Reisinger
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Porkins_ wrote:
I'll take you up on that:

I've said elsewhere that I think Aeneas seems overpowered. He negates one hit against your legions per battle, both battles that you start as well as battles that others start with you. That's a lot of legions being saved/sets of 3 resources being not expended. Most of the heroes seem to require several rounds to reach a break even point on the resources spent to buy the hero. Aeneas can do it in a single round by saving three legions.

Compare with Orpheus. He resurrects one and only one legion per round. He is sad because Aeneas is so much better at his job.

Any thoughts? Agree/disagree?


Totally agree. I brought this up in another thread but it didnt generate much discussion. I think a lot of the expansion leaders are inbalanced for one reason or another. I think I prefer just the base leaders andmif anyhting I would cherry pick just the most useful but still balanced leaders from the expansions to add to the leader deck.
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Roger Reisinger
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f-p-p-m wrote:
Nicholas M wrote:
Yes, we played with all heroes open. I only have one game with hidden heroes to compare. However, I greatly prefer the open heroes. With only 5 open at a time, there is a high chance that there are no interesting heroes.
If you play with all heroes open, it is a harder decision wheter or not you will buy a hero or other stuff.
New players complained at first a bit about "so many heroes!", but this was quickly a non-issue.


A quick houserule:
If no Hero/Wonder is taken in a given turn, just add another one or two to the open pool.


This is a really good idea and almost melds both ways to play into one. Start the game with 6 exposed leaders for purchase, and each round you replace any leaders bought plus add an extra leader. So in round 1 you'd have 6 leaders to choose from, round 2-7, 3-8, 4-9 etc.

I'll have to try this.
 
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Aaron Bredon
United States
Jersey City
New Jersey
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Porkins_ wrote:

I've said elsewhere that I think Aeneas seems overpowered. He negates one hit against your legions per battle, both battles that you start as well as battles that others start with you. That's a lot of legions being saved/sets of 3 resources being not expended. Most of the heroes seem to require several rounds to reach a break even point on the resources spent to buy the hero. Aeneas can do it in a single round by saving three legions.

Compare with Orpheus. He resurrects one and only one legion per round. He is sad because Aeneas is so much better at his job.


Orpheus is situationally more useful than Aeneas:

1. negating a hit doesn't save anything if enough hits were inflicted to still kill all your units in that province. And if you have Aeneas, I would definitely hit you that hard everywhere I attacked. (having experienced Ramses owned by Greece, the same applies there)

2. Orpheus always brings back 1 unit (which could be a 6-cost Centaur, Myrmidon, Greek Fire Trireme rather than a trireme, fortress or legion). With Orpheus, attacking once per round with 1 legion doesn't actually cost anything.

Also note that Aeneas (and Agamemnon mentioned above as well) are part of the Troia set which encourages combat in general, and the heroes there are generally more powerful combat heroes than the base heroes.
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Rob W
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abredon wrote:

1. negating a hit doesn't save anything if enough hits were inflicted to still kill all your units in that province. And if you have Aeneas, I would definitely hit you that hard everywhere I attacked. (having experienced Ramses owned by Greece, the same applies there)


This is a good point, that a legion may not always be "saved" by Aeneas. But it also means that the opponent has to bring (and pay for) an overwhelming force to defeat an Aeneas boosted army. It's even more powerful for an Aeneas boosted invader, allowing the army to last longer, travel farther and spread thin while still being formidable.
 
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Nicholas
Germany
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abredon wrote:

Also note that Aeneas (and Agamemnon mentioned above as well) are part of the Troia set which encourages combat in general, and the heroes there are generally more powerful combat heroes than the base heroes.


Oh, this is an excellent point. If playing with only one expansion, this totally makes sense!
 
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Matthew DeGoey
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Antigone worked really well for me the one game I've snagged her. Trade leader decided 1, but I chose 2 for myself. Everyone else did exactly as I predicted and put a coin out, but I put out goods the others couldn't get. Trade leader took one, I took another player's coin, he took my other good, I took the trade leader's coin, and one player got shafted. Used all the coin to buy the Hanging Gardens to also hold two commodities.

Sadly the game ended early and unfinished as the AC in my apartment had gone out and it was stifling hot.
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Richard Dewsbery
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Sutton Coldfield
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I got mullered by Nebuchanezzer yesterday. I was Rome, and grabbed Ramses. Nebuchanezzer dropped*, and was purchased by Carthage. Greece then bought Castor & Pollux, and copied Nebuchanezzer.

Let me tell you, you do not want to go up against a Greek who ha Nebuchanezzer on his side. It was a bloodbath - I lost five legions just to hold a 1-coin city for one income round.

* we play with five heroes face up, replacing them as purchased. I like the variety. But there does need to be a mechanism for clearing out the unwanted ones (eg Perseus).
 
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