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Elemental Clash: The Master Set» Forums » General

Subject: Rules specific questions rss

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Thomas W.
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Some cards have me wondering about specific interactions and even general structure of the game. First, some general questions:
If a creature dealt damage by a source with purge and then later that turn is destroyed by a seperate source without purge, is it purged or archived?

Is a creature card a spell before it enters play? I ask because some cards specify spells.

Must the stack be empty before I can play a creature or non-flash spell?

Now for some card specific questions.

Blackflame Knight
What happens if my opponent has 5 creatures in his attack zone when his ability triggers?

Whirlpool
What happens if I try to put creatures into a zone that is already full, such as the attack zone?

Morphus the Architect
His ability does not specify that you may only rearrange the stack he was on, may I rearrange all my stones?

K'nah the Liberator
May I use his ability on my opponent's turn?
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David Hassell
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milo_hobo wrote:
Some cards have me wondering about specific interactions and even general structure of the game. First, some general questions:
If a creature dealt damage by a source with purge and then later that turn is destroyed by a seperate source without purge, is it purged or archived?


Hi! I should first mention that I'm not an official source for answering questions about the game, but I'll share my own interpretations. I'm using the Collector's Edition rulebook 5.0.

According to the definition of Purge, "When a Creature would be destroyed" indicates that the purge only applies if it deals the damage to destroy it. If it only deals damage, but doesn't destroy it, then further damage that might destroy it won't trigger the purge effect unless that source of damage has Purge.

Quote:
Is a creature card a spell before it enters play? I ask because some cards specify spells.


I know that Magic: the Gathering classifies the casting of creatures as spells, but Elemental Clash uses the term to specifically refer to cards with the word Spell on the card. The rulebook then states that there are three types of spells: Spells, Flash Spells, and Permanent Spells. I don't think Creatures qualify as Spells in Elemental Clash.

Another question I had was whether Spells/Abilities that Neutralize Spells or Creatures could be used to Neutralize a Spell/Creature cast via Salvage or Boon. Based on the language on Forbid, it appears you can only Neutralize cards cast from your hand. Merman Meddler seems to apply to cards already on the Playing Field. Negate indicates that the card remains on the Element Stone Stack, meaning that applies only to cards cast there. Will of the Waves and Algorn only use Neutralize as a key word and doesn't define it further.

My head hurts, and I capitalize too many words.

Quote:
Must the stack be empty before I can play a creature or non-flash spell?


Are you referring to the Element Stone Stack or the "spell stack?"

Element Stone Stack: Yes, the stack must be clear before you can cast any card on it. Each stack only supports paying for one card, even of the number of Element Stones in the stack exceeds the level of the spell cast. So a stack that produces 3 Fire Energy that is used to cast a Burning Thoughts spell (Level 1) can't use the excess 2 Energy to cast any other spells until the Burning Thoughts spell is cleared from the stack. In this example, Burning Thoughts is a Permanent Spell, so would never leave the stack unless another card's effect removes it.

Finally, consider an example where a Level 3 Creature/Spell is placed on a stack producing 3 Energy, and something removes/destroys one of those Element Stones while the card is on the stack. The Creature/Spell still remains on the stack, because you only need the energy when you cast the card. You can exploit this! For example, cast a Permanent Spell on a stack containing Corroding Stone. Now that you've spent the energy to cast the Spell, and since the Spell no longer requires the Element Stones underneath to remain in effect, you could destroy the Corroding Stone at any time to destroy a target non-basic element stone!

"spell stack" - This is a Magic: the Gathering term referring to the fact that a series of spells may be cast before any of the spells are resolved, and you resolve them in Last In/First Out order once no more spells are played. Elemental Clash also uses the stack concept, which is described in the rulebook and follows the same rule of Last In/First Out.

Quote:
Now for some card specific questions.

Blackflame Knight
What happens if my opponent has 5 creatures in his attack zone when his ability triggers?


Handling situations where a Zone is full (5 sections each) is covered in the rulebook on the page with the Areas in Game illustration.

So Blackflame Knight would not be able to transfer to the opponent and will remain in your play area.

Quote:
Whirlpool
What happens if I try to put creatures into a zone that is already full, such as the attack zone?


You won't be able to once the target Zone is full, so no cards would transfer at that moment. The use of the expression "has to put up to two" indicates the opponent could select 0, 1, or 2. Picking 0 would basically make Whirlpool useless, so I read this Spell as requiring the opponent to transfer the maximum number up to 2.

Quote:
Morphus the Architect
His ability does not specify that you may only rearrange the stack he was on, may I rearrange all my stones?


Yes!!! Even better, you don't even have to maintain the number of Stones in each stack. For example, suppose you have 3 stacks with 2/1/2 cards. You can rearrange to 4 stacks of 1/2/1/1, 2 stacks of 3/2, etc.

Quote:
K'nah the Liberator
May I use his ability on my opponent's turn?


Since the ability says "At any time," I think you could. It's an interesting question, because you could also ask if Cumulus would allow you to pump it by discarding on your opponent's turn. My guess is that you could.
 
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Thomas W.
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Thank you! Yes, this is helpful.

The spell stack question was specifically non-flash spells, the mtg equivelent being instant cards. But in mtg it specifies that the stack must be empty before you cast a non-flash spell, where as I could find no equivelent rule in EC.
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David Hassell
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milo_hobo wrote:
Thank you! Yes, this is helpful.

The spell stack question was specifically non-flash spells, the mtg equivelent being instant cards. But in mtg it specifies that the stack must be empty before you cast a non-flash spell, where as I could find no equivelent rule in EC.


Ah, I understand what you're asking now.

In Magic, I believe that Instant not only refers to when you can cast it, but also the speed of the spell. I know that earlier in Magic, there was another type of spell called "Interrupt" that was even faster than Instant. This created a lot of timing complications, so Magic streamlined things by removing Interrupts and creating the concept of the spell stack.

In Elemental Clash, Flash spells are only defined to indicate when you can play them, but there's no formal indication that this is faster than anything else. Absent an official ruling, I would think you would be able to cast a creature or non-Flash spell while the spell stack is active.

Example: It's my turn, and I have a 3 DEF creature in my Defense Zone. You cast a flash spell to deal 3 damage to that creature. Could I then cast a creature from my hand that gives my other creatures +1 ATK and +1 DEF to save the 3 DEF creature, or would the stack have to clear before I could cast the creature, resulting in the 3 DEF creature getting destroyed? I would think you'd be able to cast the creature to save it, assuming you didn't respond with another flash spell or activate an ability that destroyed the creature I just cast.
 
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Thomas W.
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Thank you. That was my understanding as well. While I don't believe it will come up often, it is important to note the differences between Mtg and EC. So how often do you have rules questions come up? I may try to talk to Andi this weekend about getting rulings added to the .info boards.
 
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David Hassell
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milo_hobo wrote:
Thank you. That was my understanding as well. While I don't believe it will come up often, it is important to note the differences between Mtg and EC. So how often do you have rules questions come up? I may try to talk to Andi this weekend about getting rulings added to the .info boards.


I do have questions about certain interactions from time to time. It's just the nature of the beast when it comes to these type of games.

I mentioned my question about whether Boon/Salvage can be neutralized in my post above. I wondered whether you could Shackle an opponent's creature while it was on the Element Stone Stack. If so (I see no rules reason why you couldn't shackle the creature), would the shackled creature remain in the Stone Stack since it can't be moved (again, I see no rules reason why it could be moved). It just seemed really nasty to lock down both a creature and an entire Element Stone stack.

The Shackle example indicates one of the pitfalls one must avoid when playing these type of games, because it's tempting for me to want to interpret the rules to get certain things to work the way I think they should work rather than follow the rules as written. So I try to follow the rule of "do what the card says, not what it doesn't." It doesn't resolve every problem, but it can resolve most. I play casually anyway, so it's not a huge issue for me. I just make a ruling (such as taking Shackle literally and allowing it to lock the creature onto its stone stack) and play on.

If you do talk to Andi, you might ask him to provide an update on Elementalclash.com. I don't think he's provided an update to the German crowdfunding website where the German edition of Antideluvian Dreams was funded. It was supposed to be released last summer. I had a nice email exchange with him last year when I discovered Elemental Clash and he is a really nice guy. However, as someone who has been disappointed in some of the Kickstarter campaigns I've funded, lack of communication is a huge sore spot with me.

Edit: Just to clarify, I didn't fund the German crowdfunding project. I just think the people who did fund it deserve an update on the project's status.
 
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Thomas W.
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Well, he didn't make it to the Texas Ren Fest, so I didn't get to talk to him. I think he'll be heading back to Europe soon.

There are quite a few projects I hope to get an update on, but that one should definitely come first.
 
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