$18.00
GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters: 69.15

4,810 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
30.3% of Goal | 28 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
5 
 Thumb up
 Hide
16 Posts

Sicily II» Forums » Rules

Subject: Landing Craft unloading rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Alasdair Campbell
Scotland
Isle of Skye
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Am I missing something really obvious here again or do Landing Craft have to keep using the ALT to land supplies or troops in the turns following the invasion and even in friendly controlled coastal hexes? That is what the rules appear to indicate. And if this is the case, what does it represent if supplies or Landing Craft are lost in an area which is now under Allied control?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tankboy
United States
Haslet
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Read all of 18.4f. Should answer your question.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fly by Night wrote:
Read all of 18.4f. Should answer your question.


In rules v4.2 18.4f is about converting LSTs to ports, not about ALT rolls.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
cillmhor wrote:
Am I missing something really obvious here again or do Landing Craft have to keep using the ALT to land supplies or troops in the turns following the invasion and even in friendly controlled coastal hexes? That is what the rules appear to indicate. And if this is the case, what does it represent if supplies or Landing Craft are lost in an area which is now under Allied control?


Let's see how LC load/unload:

18.4c [...] Loading can only be done in port hexes (subject to current capacitiy) [...]. Important Note: Unloading is done using Amphibious Landing (18.5) or Beach Assault (18.6) procedures.

Let's see Amphibious Landings. Do they always require ALT rolls?
Here is something:

18.5d Landings requiring an ALT roll can only be done during the player's Movement Phase. Note that landings in ports which do not require an ALT roll can also be done in Reaction and Exploitation Phases (see 18.5g).

And

18.5e Transport Points and SP cannot be landed by ALT (but see 18.5g).

Ok, let's see this important 18.5g:

18.5g Do not make ALT rolls for Landing Craft making use of a friendly port with an available capacity at least as large as the size of the cargo unloaded. (Other units landed in a port hex do require an ALT roll). When no ALT roll is required, SP and loaded Transport Points can be unloaded.

So, when unloading from a LC using ALT, you cannot unload SP or TP.
When unloading in a port you don't use ALT and you can unload SP and TP.
You can use a captured port or convert an LST to a port to have a friendly port for your LCs.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alasdair Campbell
Scotland
Isle of Skye
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you gentlemen.

I knew that I could use friendly ports to avoid ALT rolls, but I wanted to use the port capacity of those ports to bring in SPs and troops via the 8SPs Naval Cap in the movement phase and then bring in extra SPs via the Landing Craft in the movement phase landing them next to HQs so that the HQs could draw them off the Landing Craft.

My question I suppose is this: why would there be a risk of craft or cargo losses 11 days after the initial landings in an area which is occupied by friendly units? Is this an abstraction of there being mines present, or the risk of enemy air interdiction or some other risk which remains in the crossing and landing? Why does the requirement for an ALT roll remain indefinitely even when landing in friendly territory? It's conceivable that if I keep risking the Landing Craft in ALT rolls that I will run out of them before I clear the Floating Forces box.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tankboy
United States
Haslet
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
cillmhor wrote:
Thank you gentlemen.

I knew that I could use friendly ports to avoid ALT rolls, but I wanted to use the port capacity of those ports to bring in SPs and troops via the 8SPs Naval Cap in the movement phase and then bring in extra SPs via the Landing Craft in the movement phase landing them next to HQs so that the HQs could draw them off the Landing Craft.



If 8SP is the Naval Cap, how are you planning on bringing in more SP using Landing Craft?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alasdair Campbell
Scotland
Isle of Skye
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Sorry, perhaps I used the wrong term. Shipping Capacity is given as 8SP, but I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that ALTs with landing craft did not count against the Shipping Capacity? Only if they used ports.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tankboy
United States
Haslet
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
They're one and the same. Once your LC's have successfully made it to shore (8SP max) and converted to 1SP ports, then follow-up turns can automatically place up to 8SP (max) on those controlled Ports using your Naval/Shipping Cap . Nothing extra unless you fly it in.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alasdair Campbell
Scotland
Isle of Skye
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I thought it was only LSTs that convert to 1SP ports and the landing craft remain available until 14 July turn when you are only allowed to retain 12 points worth. So the first turn invasion when there is a whole lot of points being landed via LSTs and landing craft is an exception to the 8SP limit?

I wish the game specific rules had been a bit more specific for a new player such as myself.

What confuses me is that under rule 19f, it states that "Naval units are not used for this abstracted form of transport, used to move ground units from port to port."

Landing Craft are naval units, so is what they move considered part of the abstract form of transport above? Also I'm not sure that the Floating Box in Sicily is considered a port, so I'm wondering if the Landing Craft are a special case here?

If not, the Allies are going to have a tough time unloading what's in the Floating box and Tunisia if they can only take a total of 8SPs across each turn.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tankboy
United States
Haslet
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Landing Craft, DUKWs, and
LSTs are collectively called
“Landing Craft.” These are
naval units used to deliver
troops and supplies to invasion beaches.

Quote:
If not, the Allies are going to have a tough time unloading what's in the Floating box and Tunisia if they can only take a total of 8SPs across each turn.


Yes, I believe that's the intention.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alasdair Campbell
Scotland
Isle of Skye
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you once again for the answer. I'm playing solo, so I'm going to try it by using the Landing Craft as extra capacity to bring SPs and troops ashore from the Floating Box and then try it with the strict 8SP limit and see how easy it is for the Allies. With the strict 8SP limit, I think it will be very tough for the Allies to reach their historic goals.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Fly by Night wrote:
They're one and the same. Once your LC's have successfully made it to shore (8SP max) and converted to 1SP ports, then follow-up turns can automatically place up to 8SP (max) on those controlled Ports using your Naval/Shipping Cap . Nothing extra unless you fly it in.


That is not what the rules say.

Quote:
OCS 19.0f Shipping. Game-specific rules define each side's Shipping Allowance (if any), which is sometimes called Sea Cap. Naval units are not used for this abstracted form of transport, used to move ground units from port to port.

3.2a Shipping. Allied shipping capacity is 8 SP per turn. It is used to move cargo between ports (see 1.2c and OCS 19.0a for some limitations).

3.2b Floating Forces Box. Landing Craft are the only way to transport the ground units in this box to the map

D) Shipping cannot move cargo to or from the Floating Forces Box.

E) Landing Craft cannot move cargo to or from the Tunisia Box.
.

So you can only use LC to move the units in the Floating Forces Box to Sicily. This transport does not count to Sea Cap.

Shipping is moving units from port to port, allies have 8 shipping points per turn and Landing Craft do not count as such.

LC are only from/to Floating Forces and Sicily.

Shipping is only from/to Tunisia and Sicily.

Once the Floating Forces Box is empty, the only use for LC is moving units around the Sicily coast.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
cillmhor wrote:

My question I suppose is this: why would there be a risk of craft or cargo losses 11 days after the initial landings in an area which is occupied by friendly units? Is this an abstraction of there being mines present, or the risk of enemy air interdiction or some other risk which remains in the crossing and landing? Why does the requirement for an ALT roll remain indefinitely even when landing in friendly territory? It's conceivable that if I keep risking the Landing Craft in ALT rolls that I will run out of them before I clear the Floating Forces box.


I don't know about this, the designer should chime in.

I guess the Sicily coast is rough and unloading things outside a port must be somewhat risky.

Or maybe it is a design for effect to forbid ahistorical tactics.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tankboy
United States
Haslet
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
OK, I think I see the misunderstanding here. The Floating Box was the wrinkle. You can use your 8SP Sea Cap to ship 8SP from Tunisia straight into controlled Ports, provided you control them. If your continuing to use Landing Craft to bring troops/supplies into coastal hex's instead of Ports or LST Converted Ports, then yes, the ALT roll remains in effect. This may be due to unrevealed beach obstacles, bad surf or drunken helmsmen. You can use your Ports to unload up to their limit without an ALT roll.

So use your Ports and captured Airfields to bring in your Supply once your initial landings take place.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alasdair Campbell
Scotland
Isle of Skye
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you for those answers, that's it all cleared up for me now.

I emailed John Kisner before your final replies, and his answers to my questions are perhaps worth posting for anyone interested and reiterate what you both said.

I wonder if you could help me with a query I have about the Shipping Capacity of the Allies in Sicily II. Are the landing craft included in the 8SP shipping capacity for the Allies, in other words if the landing craft are used to bring SPs and troops across from the Floating Forces box does that eat into the 8SP shipping capacity and so limit the SPs and troops which can be brought across from Tunisia? I presume on the first turn that all landing craft and the 8SP capacity can be used. My question is, in subsequent turns can the landing craft continue to be used for Amphibious landings of SPs and troops coming from the Floating Box over and above the 8SPs of shipping capacity from Tunisia, or would Amphibious landings count against the shipping capacity? And if Amphibious landings do not count against the capacity, does using landing craft to ship from the Floating Box to friendly ports count against the 8SP limit (I know they would use up each port’s capacity).

"Shipping" is abstract, not using the LC counters. You always get 8 for moving cargo from Tunisia to the island. Cargo moved via LC is totally separate, and in addition.

And just as a matter of interest, why do the rules leave no room for landing craft making an amphibious landing on a ‘friendly’ hex without risk of loss. My thought here is, when the Allies in Sicily II still have landing craft days after the initial landing, each time they amphibious land anything there is still a risk of loss. What abstraction is going on here? I would have thought that by 28 July say, that a landing craft used to land materials/troops in a coastal hex behind Allied lines/occupied by an Allied unit would be less susceptible to losses.

I suppose the chance for losses reflects accidents and attrition. There is also a lot of sub-system inertia in a series like this: the first ALT was designed back in the 1990s, and subsequent ones have followed the same basic structure.

It seems to me that the big concern is Failure results (Mixed are not all that bad), and these can be eliminated by unloading in hexes with ports (not using the port cap but using the ALT in these favorable hexes) and in areas where you have naval gunfire support.


6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martí Cabré

Terrassa
Catalonia, Spain
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Interesting ideas from John Kisner, thanks!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.