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Triumph & Tragedy» Forums » General

Subject: +1 starting industry to the allies rss

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Alec D.
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I've played this game quite a bit over the past year, with multiple groups, and I've noticed that the allies have a bit of a hard time pulling off victory. Most games in my experience are over before the Americans arrive, either due to victory points or lost capitals. To remedy this we've started giving +1 starting industry to the allies, which really helps level the playing field at least in my localized experience. What do other wargamers think?
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Michael Tan
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Have you tried the second edition changes which help the West out quite a bit?
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David E
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I'd try playing it with other groups to see if your issue is one of "group-think."

In my games, the West has usually won. The early game is supposed to be rough for the West, but if they can hold out until the US enters the war, they become a steamroller, which implicitly puts a timer on the Axis and the Soviets.
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Max
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In my group the USSR wins more than anyone, but Allies win more often than the Axis. Axis is the underdog for us, especially if playing first in 1936.
 
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A P
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m3tan wrote:
Have you tried the second edition changes which help the West out quite a bit?


Did I miss something that changed the game for the West in the second edition?
 
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Michael Tan
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Melric wrote:
m3tan wrote:
Have you tried the second edition changes which help the West out quite a bit?


Did I miss something that changed the game for the West in the second edition?

This is like the fifth cross post but here goes:

Per Craig, changes are: (those that really benefit West are in bold)

- 3cv Russ Inf Moscow
+ 1cv Brit Inf Karachi
+ 1cv Brit Fort Gibraltar

+ Towns in Gib/Malta
+ USA Influence flag 1941


Azores = Straits
Canada = BritHome
Canada = 1 area (no Prairies)


Canada-NewYork = Forest
London-Glasg = Mtns
Petsamo-Murm = Forest
Rum-Bulg = River
Rum-Belgrade = River
Kars-Tabriz = Mtns
Sahara extends to Suez

Hegemony Victory: Blockade FX excluded
2-Way: *Half* Initial Action cards to Passive Stack, half to Hand
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Michael Tan
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I think it's pretty evident at this point that the game as published is balanced in the favor of the Soviets and against the West. That being said, the nature of a 3 player game is self balancing so any side can win even with the first edition setup. The second edition setup goes a long way towards remedying the biggest balance issue which was that the West was very vulnerable to a early KO by the Axis. It still is vulnerable, but it's now a risky play by the Axis and probably hands the game to the USSR if they can't get the instant victory...
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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m3tan wrote:
This is like the fifth cross post but here goes:

Per Craig, changes are:

I've added this list to the "community wiki" section on the game's page so that it's in one place where everyone can maintain it, but I wasn't sure what some of it meant; you have a link to where you got this?

m3tan wrote:
I think it's pretty evident at this point that the game as published is balanced in the favor of the Soviets

That hasn't been my experience; I think I've only played 3-4 times, but every game has been an early Axis win, with the Soviets spending a little too long watching the Axis beat the stuffing out of the West.
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Michael Tan
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kuhrusty wrote:
m3tan wrote:
This is like the fifth cross post but here goes:

Per Craig, changes are:

I've added this list to the "community wiki" section on the game's page so that it's in one place where everyone can maintain it, but I wasn't sure what some of it meant; you have a link to where you got this?


The irony is I sent him a PM complimenting his design and asked in passing as I couldn't find the final list of changes. I just cut and paste his e-mail reply. Since then I've already posted twice here on the the forums and Craig reposted once as well. So obviously folks don't know where to look for stuff like that...
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Michael Tan
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kuhrusty wrote:
m3tan wrote:
I think it's pretty evident at this point that the game as published is balanced in the favor of the Soviets

That hasn't been my experience; I think I've only played 3-4 times, but every game has been an early Axis win, with the Soviets spending a little too long watching the Axis beat the stuffing out of the West.
The beauty of a three player game, which Craig has taken full advantage of, is that they are self balancing. As long as the setup prevents an early runaway leader, it's anybody's game to win. Individual experiences may vary because you can try so many different strategies. I think the play balance only matters for advanced players.
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Alberto Natta
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The issue can be more that the "West" can be somehow more boring (as per passive / limited) due to the starting low industry.

In my regular group games the Axis is perceived as the underdog but the most funny (you've more IND at the start, you do more things), the West as the most boring, and the Soviets as the easiest.

We play with a bidding system though, which evens out a bit the starting positions.
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Dave Boschen
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I find the west to be just as fun, but very different from the other powers. The asymmetry is really fantastic for me, as I can try very different strategies with each power.

As noted above, even if the game were wildly unbalanced (I don't think it is, and 2nd Ed is even finer tuned), the players are the balancing factor in a 3 player game. Fluid balance of power must be recognized and adjusted to.

It's brilliant.
 
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Peter Magro
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Thank you!

That was real Western help.

Does the Soviets still get population x2 in Moscow, 6 cadres?

I ordered this for the mounted map, did not know such thinghs where coming on top :-)
 
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