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Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » General

Subject: Are trade negotiations in a 3 player game broken? rss

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Matt Freitas
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So we played our first game.

The trade negotiations seem ridiculously punishing. We started by trading the 3 production between the first two players that met. Then because of that they were greatly outproducing the third player.

The players finally all meet and exchange their trade negotiations. But by this point the other player convinces the now far behind player that i'm currently in the lead even if it is only by a small amount. So they both break trade agreements with me and then upgrade their trade negotiation to 3.

I'm now crippled with only my base production easily being half of that of my opponents. The other player who was only slightly behind with double production simply proceeded to ram ships down my throat till he broke my defenses while the 3rd player got to play catchup benefiting from the boosted production he was denied early game.

I'm half tempted to house rule trade negotiations out of the game because i can't ever not see this happening. At least in a 4-5 player game when that happens there are other trading partners who would have a vested interest in not letting a player be screwed.

What are other players experiences with them?
 
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Nova Cat
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It sounds to me like Player 2 played both of you. This isn't a problem with trade agreements, but a diplomatic strategy. Convincing one player to team up with you against your main competition is in nearly every 3+ player strategic game.

Knowing not to over-commit to taking down a lead player, and knowing how to identify when you're being played, is part of becoming a skilled player.
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Chris Schenck
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At some point it should have become obvious that player 2 was in the lead. Unless the trailing player was shilling for player 2, he should have been willing to break off the trade agreement.
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Grish
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Tolio wrote:
I'm half tempted to house rule trade negotiations out of the game because...


How many times have you played the game?

I think for any game, the right way of approaching a problem you see is not a knee jerk reaction to "house rule" but to play the game again, and again, and again, with your eye on the aspect which gives you the most problems.

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Matt Freitas
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I get he should have broken his trade agreement long ago and i tried to convince him of that, but it just seems far too beneficial to third and second place to not have a 3 trade agreement because of how few resources are in the game.

As for the house rule i agree hence why i dont feel the need to house rule the federation as my knee jerk reaction is to never play them again as they are crazily penalized for no benefit at all. Cant invade or colonize pre warp planets is a huge penalty for a bonus of maybe 2-3 culture.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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Tolio wrote:
So we played our first game.

The trade negotiations seem ridiculously punishing. We started by trading the 3 production between the first two players that met. Then because of that they were greatly outproducing the third player.

The players finally all meet and exchange their trade negotiations. But by this point the other player convinces the now far behind player that i'm currently in the lead even if it is only by a small amount. So they both break trade agreements with me and then upgrade their trade negotiation to 3.

I'm now crippled with only my base production easily being half of that of my opponents. The other player who was only slightly behind with double production simply proceeded to ram ships down my throat till he broke my defenses while the 3rd player got to play catchup benefiting from the boosted production he was denied early game.

I'm half tempted to house rule trade negotiations out of the game because i can't ever not see this happening. At least in a 4-5 player game when that happens there are other trading partners who would have a vested interest in not letting a player be screwed.

What are other players experiences with them?


the game is all about shifting alliances.

once you got hammered, the cathching up player should have identified your other opponent as in the lead and switched sides to trade with you. sometimes it may need some convincing, not just by trade but perhaps other benefits.

nothing prevented the catching up player to have a trade with you as well while the other attacks you, to balance it out ie C can trade with both B and A even while B and A are fighting each other.

its also about being in the lead but not showing it too obviously.
 
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Marc Bennett
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Tolio wrote:
I get he should have broken his trade agreement long ago and i tried to convince him of that, but it just seems far too beneficial to third and second place to not have a 3 trade agreement because of how few resources are in the game.

As for the house rule i agree hence why i dont feel the need to house rule the federation as my knee jerk reaction is to never play them again as they are crazily penalized for no benefit at all. Cant invade or colonize pre warp planets is a huge penalty for a bonus of maybe 2-3 culture.


i dunno about that, the feds play a speed game you should be at 3 ascendancy before any first contact or trade agreements. its not just the bonus culture you get, you have to look at everything. colonization fleets to avoid paying culture, the researches that let you hegemony cheaper. etc
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Angelus Seniores
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the federation are definitely a fast-playing faction, they should in general have more planets colonized than the other factions when you meet up.
also, once they have their research tech and/or their science fleet harvesting research from phenomenons, they can upgrade weapons/shields faster.
 
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Matt Freitas
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As i said i only played them once and out of 6 explorations pre first contacts 3 were non planet paras and the other 3 were gave me a net of 1 prod, 2 cult, and 1 open resource. so it's possible with better seeding i'd be faster hence why i don't want to knee jerk and say their just terrible.

But those techs take far to long to research to have more than 1 or 2 be relevant, enemies can load up far more ships for a fleet attack, enemies have access to first strike while federation doesn't (which is huge), the feds have 0 combat focused techs either defensive or offensive for space combat and their ground ones are generic shared with everyone or just romulans (don't recall).
 
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Nova Cat
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Klaxas wrote:
Tolio wrote:
I get he should have broken his trade agreement long ago and i tried to convince him of that, but it just seems far too beneficial to third and second place to not have a 3 trade agreement because of how few resources are in the game.

As for the house rule i agree hence why i dont feel the need to house rule the federation as my knee jerk reaction is to never play them again as they are crazily penalized for no benefit at all. Cant invade or colonize pre warp planets is a huge penalty for a bonus of maybe 2-3 culture.


i dunno about that, the feds play a speed game you should be at 3 ascendancy before any first contact or trade agreements. its not just the bonus culture you get, you have to look at everything. colonization fleets to avoid paying culture, the researches that let you hegemony cheaper. etc

As a minor benefit, the Federation player gets to be the "Good Guys," which might cause other players to favor them in negotiations.
 
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Marc Bennett
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Tolio wrote:
As i said i only played them once and out of 6 explorations pre first contacts 3 were non planet paras and the other 3 were gave me a net of 1 prod, 2 cult, and 1 open resource. so it's possible with better seeding i'd be faster hence why i don't want to knee jerk and say their just terrible.

But those techs take far to long to research to have more than 1 or 2 be relevant, enemies can load up far more ships for a fleet attack, enemies have access to first strike while federation doesn't (which is huge), the feds have 0 combat focused techs either defensive or offensive for space combat and their ground ones are generic shared with everyone or just romulans (don't recall).


when you start getting research from phenomenon the research progresses very fast, ive researched both 3 and 4 techs in 1 or 2 rounds. occasionally i can bring out the card and research it in the same turn playing the feds. depending on how many phenomenon i have access too
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Matt Freitas
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Klaxas wrote:
Tolio wrote:
As i said i only played them once and out of 6 explorations pre first contacts 3 were non planet paras and the other 3 were gave me a net of 1 prod, 2 cult, and 1 open resource. so it's possible with better seeding i'd be faster hence why i don't want to knee jerk and say their just terrible.

But those techs take far to long to research to have more than 1 or 2 be relevant, enemies can load up far more ships for a fleet attack, enemies have access to first strike while federation doesn't (which is huge), the feds have 0 combat focused techs either defensive or offensive for space combat and their ground ones are generic shared with everyone or just romulans (don't recall).


when you start getting research from phenomenon the research progresses very fast, ive researched both 3 and 4 techs in 1 or 2 rounds. occasionally i can bring out the card and research it in the same turn playing the feds. depending on how many phenomenon i have access too


that is one thing i think we forgot about was that those tech can go straight onto the research, thanks for reminding me.
 
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Marc Bennett
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Tolio wrote:
Klaxas wrote:
Tolio wrote:
As i said i only played them once and out of 6 explorations pre first contacts 3 were non planet paras and the other 3 were gave me a net of 1 prod, 2 cult, and 1 open resource. so it's possible with better seeding i'd be faster hence why i don't want to knee jerk and say their just terrible.

But those techs take far to long to research to have more than 1 or 2 be relevant, enemies can load up far more ships for a fleet attack, enemies have access to first strike while federation doesn't (which is huge), the feds have 0 combat focused techs either defensive or offensive for space combat and their ground ones are generic shared with everyone or just romulans (don't recall).


when you start getting research from phenomenon the research progresses very fast, ive researched both 3 and 4 techs in 1 or 2 rounds. occasionally i can bring out the card and research it in the same turn playing the feds. depending on how many phenomenon i have access too


that is one thing i think we forgot about was that those tech can go straight onto the research, thanks for reminding me.


its a common thing to forget.
 
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